I’ve had a question rattling around in my head for a couple weeks and I’ve done a bit of searching here without success. So I figured I’d open a new thread to gauge your thoughts.
Back when the 2017 Red Burgundies hit the market they were absolutely singing on release. Just delicious wines out of the gate. This was quite a change from the 2016s which did not show as well initially and closed up quickly.
This generated a large amount of discussion between which was the better vintage with many people stating that while the 2017s were better on release with 10 years of bottle age the 2016s would surpass them and end up being better with age.
Well, it’s now 2026 and the 2016s are by label 10 years old. Does anyone have any updates on their opinions between 2016 and 2017?
FWIW I plan to look a some of these wines over the next few months to better gauge my perspective. But I thought it would be a good question to ask here.
I appreciate the response but I’m still hoping some of the folks that were involved in the original discussion will chime in with their opinions as well.
I may be one of the people your question was aimed at. En primeur, I liked both 2016 and 2017. But the latter has always been the friendlier vintage. My honest opinion is that it always will be. But burgundy has a habit of making me look foolish, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the better 2016’s opened up gloriously at age 15 or 20. But our 2017 Barthod Bourgogne Bons Batons was great tonight, better than many Chambolles. 2017 is kinda like 2002, so approachable that people underrate them.
(I think Michael said the same thing, just more efficiently)
Thanks for the response Brady! And you’re right, IIRC you were active in the initial discussion.
I thought it was an interesting question to revisit in retrospect. There seemed to be some pretty strong opinions back then and I’m curious to see how people feel close to a decade later. Most people here open more bottles than I do as well so I was also hoping it might help me with planning on opening a few bottles over winter down here.
So we just opened 16 and 17s last week from a producer and vineyard that is generally thought to need a lot of time, Mongeard Mugneret Grands Echezeaux.
Both of the wines were actually reasonably open, but the 17 was much more open than the 16, and had much more fruit. Neither wine was particularly closed, but I didn’t get the big structure I was expecting from it. You can read our notes here.
We’ve had both ‘16 and ‘17 Jadot Ursules recently and the former was more black fruited and took a couple of hours to unfurl while the latter was red fruited and open for business. Both tasty but no question which is better for current drinking.
I cracked a 2016 Domaine Robert Chevillon Nuits-Saint-Georges 1er Cru Les Cailles for you last night. It had aromas of dark cherry, menthol, black earth and ironstone. It was quite deep and dense in the mouth. There’s concentrated fruit at its heart and plenty of savoury nuance. Rich and chewy, powerful and long. It needs more time but I didn’t regret opening it.
I haven’t had a huge amount of either vintage of late, perhaps around a dozen bottles of each over the past 12 months. I think at this stage the ‘17’s have more aromatic width and are a little more giving. The ‘16’s are deeper and more concentrated but certainly providing some pleasure now too.
Can’t recall last ime that I cracked a '16. Didn’t really go that deep on the vintage but will bust one in next few days. My vague recollection is that some are a bit blocky.
Late night scrolling brought me to this thread, so I decided to post a TN of Bichot’s 2016 Amoureuses. Full notes in this link but, if you don’t feel like reading that: it did feel too early to open it, by at least 5 but maybe 10 years. Very primary and one-dimensional at this point.
Had '16 Domaine Dubreuil-Fontaine Corton Clos du Roi a few weeks ago. Really pretty wine but the fruit core was still super compact. Probably another five years from its ideal drinking window.
The only '16 I’ve had that was truly excellent was De Montille Volnay Taillepieds. Absolutely gorgeous nose. Have three more bottles coming in this week.
3 really delicious 2016 I have had was Roumier Morey CDLB, Tremblay Vosne VV 2016 and Bizot Jachees Vosne 2016, the latter was emotional good. But mostly I would wait e.g. Domaine Bachelet Gevrey Corbeaux 2016 needs much more time for my palate. I do believe in the vintage long term, but I am not buying, prefer more mature vintages or more open vintages like really young or e.g. 2017.
Just had several 2016s and 2017s a couple of weeks ago at the Paulee. The 2016s I tasted there seemed to be solid wines, but I don’t remember any of them being the standout of the wines tasted at the wineries I visited.
The 2017s were more variable and have been from the beginning. I was in Burgundy in 2018 and tasted a bunch. They were friendly wines, but hollow in the middle. A year or so later at the Paulee grand tasting of 2017s, I was amazed at how well some of the wines had filled out. Now, at the Paulee Verticals this year, I saw both. Wines that were excellent and wines that were a bit hollow needing more fruit.
The final verdict on both vintages IMHO still has not been written. Will the solid 2016s open up more with age? How will the better 2017s age? Will they become like 2007s and always be friendly or will they be like 2008s where a number will always lack some fruit. My guess is both, but time will tell.
Sorry for not responding sooner, but I did pull a 2016 from my cellar to look at a couple weeks ago. Specifically, I reached for a 2016 Bouchard Les Teurons 1er. This wine used to be an annual 3 pack buy for me given the pricing and quality of the vineyard (imho) but the 2018 was so hot and dark I stopped buying. Plus pricing inflated significantly, which didn’t help either. Anyway, onto the note.
I opened this wine at 5:30pm and followed it over the evening.
On initial pour the nose was quite big. Smoke, structure with a deep dark pitch component. Has a touch of volatility, along with a hint of cola jubes.
Palate was atypical to the nose. Elegant and almost lithe, red fruited with a good acidic spine. It was less tannic than the nose led me to expect. Quite exciting on opening.
After 30 minutes at the end of the first glass the nose had cleaned up and prettied up substantially. Nose was dominated by fresh red cherries and had a touch of white flowers as well. The palate also settled in with a silky entry. Still dominated by red fruit and acid, but the palate width was starting to emerge.
By the time I finished the last glass it was a little after 9pm. Nose had continued to evolve and open and by this point there was tart raspberry fruit and it has also developed what I would describe as the powdery tannic CdB nose. It also had a touch of ferrous notes as well.
As you can imagine the last glass was so good. Elegance with palate width/complexity. Pretty with good length for a 1er. I’m disappointed this was my last bottling of this wine as I’d love to check in again in 5-10 years. I reckon it’s got heaps of life left in the tank!
Obviously just one data point, but I was quite impressed with how well this wine showed during the evening. My wife also had a couple small pours and her perspective on the development in the glass were comparable to mine.