17 Charlopin Chambolle AC and WHWC mini gripe

[MChang]

Interesting that Philippe’s use of new oak is so high. His son Yann spent some time with him but on his own (Domaine Charlopin-Tissier) I’ve never detected any new oak across the handful of vintages I’ve sampled so far (including ‘18, which is obviously quite primary).

I really wanted to like it as it was well-priced.

[William_Kelley]

Interesting that Philippe’s use of new oak is so high. His son Yann spent some time with him but on his own (Domaine Charlopin-Tissier) I’ve never detected any new oak across the handful of vintages I’ve sampled so far (including ‘18, which is obviously quite primary).

Well, I don’t think it is all that high these days, just in terms of percentage. I haven’t tasted with Philippe other than informally, but IIRC the communal AOCs see 50% new. I had a look at other reviewers’ commentaries and no one mentions much about oak - either how much is used, or its perceptibility. Allen Meadows and Neal Martin have both been talking up recent vintages. But as I say, I haven’t myself tasted.

[William_Kelley]

I opened one bottle of the 17 h Magnien cazetiers and did think it had potential. I liked it much more than this Charlopin. I had half a bottle left of the Charlopin and had maybe half a glass before pouring the rest out, which is a really rare occurrence for me.

I think I have one bottle of 16 Charlopin Clos st denis and one bottle of 15 la justice left, which I hope are palatable.

William do you know any idea how much oak he’s using nowadays?

The 2016 CSD is very nice! I tasted it with him and Cécile a few years ago.

I think often in these sorts of situations it would be a mistake to underestimate what can happen with a bit more time in bottle. I had a very overtly oaky 2017 Rousseau Gevrey AOC in December, for example, but I suspect the (all used, in this case) wood will be imperceptible in a dozen years. During élevage one sees the same thing. A wine that seemed seamlessly integrated one week can be dominated by oak lactones the next; but it will typically come round.

[m_ristev]

has any one tried the charlopin franc de pied? always been curious about it but have yet to see a bottle in the wild…

[MChang]

I opened one bottle of the 17 h Magnien cazetiers and did think it had potential. I liked it much more than this Charlopin. I had half a bottle left of the Charlopin and had maybe half a glass before pouring the rest out, which is a really rare occurrence for me.

I think I have one bottle of 16 Charlopin Clos st denis and one bottle of 15 la justice left, which I hope are palatable.

William do you know any idea how much oak he’s using nowadays?

The 2016 CSD is very nice! I tasted it with him and Cécile a few years ago.

I think often in these sorts of situations it would be a mistake to underestimate what can happen with a bit more time in bottle. I had a very overtly oaky 2017 Rousseau Gevrey AOC in December, for example, but I suspect the (all used, in this case) wood will be imperceptible in a dozen years. During élevage one sees the same thing. A wine that seemed seamlessly integrated one week can be dominated by oak lactones the next; but it will typically come round.

maybe i’ll just hold onto my other bottles for awhile then.

[William_Kelley]

I opened one bottle of the 17 h Magnien cazetiers and did think it had potential. I liked it much more than this Charlopin. I had half a bottle left of the Charlopin and had maybe half a glass before pouring the rest out, which is a really rare occurrence for me.

I think I have one bottle of 16 Charlopin Clos st denis and one bottle of 15 la justice left, which I hope are palatable.

William do you know any idea how much oak he’s using nowadays?

The 2016 CSD is very nice! I tasted it with him and Cécile a few years ago.

I think often in these sorts of situations it would be a mistake to underestimate what can happen with a bit more time in bottle. I had a very overtly oaky 2017 Rousseau Gevrey AOC in December, for example, but I suspect the (all used, in this case) wood will be imperceptible in a dozen years. During élevage one sees the same thing. A wine that seemed seamlessly integrated one week can be dominated by oak lactones the next; but it will typically come round.

maybe i’ll just hold onto my other bottles for awhile then.

Yeah, give one a shot in four or five years. You don’t have much to loose…

[Jayson_Cohen]

You’re drawing a pointless distinction. Klwm and whwc can sell direct to consumer because of the laws in their state. They all import the wines from the wineries.

Curious if these were actually imported by Adventures in Wine or other legally organized importer, holding up Greg’s distinction that threatened to highjack the thread.

I’ve never tried these producers but used to buy regularly from WHWC. Now curious. (WHWC emails were too tempting so I unsubscribed from them to save money. Very effective.)

[Peter_Chiu]

I opened one bottle of the 17 h Magnien cazetiers and did think it had potential. I liked it much more than this Charlopin. I had half a bottle left of the Charlopin and had maybe half a glass before pouring the rest out, which is a really rare occurrence for me.

I think I have one bottle of 16 Charlopin Clos st denis and one bottle of 15 la justice left, which I hope are palatable.

William do you know any idea how much oak he’s using nowadays?

The 2016 CSD is very nice! I tasted it with him and Cécile a few years ago.

I think often in these sorts of situations it would be a mistake to underestimate what can happen with a bit more time in bottle. I had a very overtly oaky 2017 Rousseau Gevrey AOC in December, for example, but I suspect the (all used, in this case) wood will be imperceptible in a dozen years. During élevage one sees the same thing. A wine that seemed seamlessly integrated one week can be dominated by oak lactones the next; but it will typically come round.

Thanks William - for pointing out the fact that wine aged in used oak barrels ( 2017 Rouuseau Gevrey AOC ) could make the wine overtly oaky when young. I was under the wrong impression that wine tasted oaky ( when open young ) was mainly due to the use of new oak barrels.

I personally do mind the use of new oak barrels by my prefer producers. Ŧhere is no over-oak wine except under-wine wine.

[A_Gillette]

I’ve often found the Charlopin wines to be, much like Greg’s attempt to rationalize his misuse of the “merchant”, over-extracted and puzzling. But my experience is limited to the Bourgogne franc de pied. I bought Desaunay Bissey in 2005 - but never again because they are bad. Anytime a merchant, importer, retailer or other person engaged in the wine trade for profit suggests I try three burgundy producers that are really great but just don’t sell because no one is familiar with them, my inner skeptic kicks in. Doubly so if the sale pitch includes a reference to the producer being a relative of some famous and outrageously priced producer.

[William_Kelley]

I opened one bottle of the 17 h Magnien cazetiers and did think it had potential. I liked it much more than this Charlopin. I had half a bottle left of the Charlopin and had maybe half a glass before pouring the rest out, which is a really rare occurrence for me.

I think I have one bottle of 16 Charlopin Clos st denis and one bottle of 15 la justice left, which I hope are palatable.

William do you know any idea how much oak he’s using nowadays?

The 2016 CSD is very nice! I tasted it with him and Cécile a few years ago.

I think often in these sorts of situations it would be a mistake to underestimate what can happen with a bit more time in bottle. I had a very overtly oaky 2017 Rousseau Gevrey AOC in December, for example, but I suspect the (all used, in this case) wood will be imperceptible in a dozen years. During élevage one sees the same thing. A wine that seemed seamlessly integrated one week can be dominated by oak lactones the next; but it will typically come round.

Thanks William - for pointing out the fact that wine aged in used oak barrels ( 2017 Rouuseau Gevrey AOC ) could make the wine overtly oaky when young. I was under the wrong impression that wine tasted oaky ( when open young ) was mainly due to the use of new oak barrels.

I personally do mind the use of new oak barrels by my prefer producers. Ŧhere is no over-oak wine except under-wine wine.

Yeah, honestly, the 2018 Chambolle-Musigny I made with two once-used barrels tastes “oakier” than the 2019 I made with 50 per cent new. But it was good for me, as a critic, to see that first hand. At least for Pinot Noir in Burgundy, I think integration has more to do with the quality and character of the oak, and its relation with the wine, winemaking and élevage approach of the producer, than the quantity of new oak.

[Peter_Chiu]

William - thanks for your example of 2018 Chambolle- Musigny which you had made with two once-used barrels…and the 2019 with 50% new.

Very interesting comments.

For me to really understand why it is like - as I am scratching my head -; I assume that you were talking about the same substance : grapes in Chambolle-Musiguy in the year 2018 and also the grape in Chambolle-Musigny in the year 2019. Am I right ?

If this is the case…my guess…it has more to do with the weather condition of growing seasons …ALSO ?

((((( At least for Pinot Noir in Burgundy, I think integration has more to do with the quality and character of the oak, and its relation with the wine, winemaking and élevage approach of the producer, than the quantity of new oak.))))

[William_Kelley]

William - thanks for your example of 2018 Chambolle- Musigny which you had made with two once-used barrels…and the 2019 with 50% new.

Very interesting comments.

For me to really understand why it is like - as I am scratching my head -; I assume that you were talking about the same substance : grapes in Chambolle-Musiguy in the year 2018 and also the grape in Chambolle-Musigny in the year 2019. Am I right ?

If this is the case…my guess…it has more to do with the weather condition of growing seasons …ALSO ?

((((( At least for Pinot Noir in Burgundy, I think integration has more to do with the quality and character of the oak, and its relation with the wine, winemaking and élevage approach of the producer, than the quantity of new oak.))))

No, I think it was more to do with the provenance, grain, seasoning, etc of the barrels!

[Peter_Chiu]

Thanks…better …to stay and keep on drinking the wine …than…to figure out how it was made.

[Keith_Levenberg]

I’ve had many beautiful bottles from Desaunay-Bissey. Weygandt has brought them in for awhile, or if they don’t anymore at least they used to.

[alan_weinberg]

Doubly so if the sale pitch includes a reference to the producer being a relative of some famous and outrageously priced producer.

agreed. The pitch I always laugh at is when the wine comes from the same grapes or plot as famous so and so, hence wonderful. So I guess if I use Monet’s paints, I can paint as well as he?