Lab Analysis For Two Chateauneufs.

I recently had the pleasure of having two 2004 Chateauneufs with a board member at Bistro Jeanty, in Yountville. I have never been the biggest fan of Grenache (sorry) but I jumped at the chance to have these two wines, both of them well-known names scoring in the mid-90s by the Pooh-Bah. To me, the wines, and their quality, could not have been more different.

I will leave the actual names out. The CP was structured, with nice acid, excellent red fruit flavors, a touch of spice, along with good grip and a sure chance to age well. In fact, at age 7+, I did not think it was ready yet. The other, P, was a wreck. I found it poor, even though underneath all that barnyard and horse saddle aromas was probably lurking some nice, luscious fruit. It did not have the structure of the CP, and was more like a Russian River styled-Grenache with brett. I understand how “some” brett “might” be complexity, but this level to me is just plain a flaw, nothing else.

I decided to take both wines to the lab and have them tested. Here is the lab report, below.

Note… each are 15% alcohol. Neither has a VA issues. The CP is clean as can be, while the P is a brett disaster. The threshold for 4-ethylphenol is about 140-400 micrograms per liter. This is about 5-13 times that level. The level of 4-ethylguaiacol, which often is the smell of bacon, is apparently below the threshold level. The combo is close to the 10-1 ratio that is often discussed in wine books. Just thought you might be interested to see the results. For myself, I found the brett in the P to be a terroir destroyer, not terroir.

Granted I’m a bit of a nerd but I wish I could pop out data like this for every wine I open. Very interesting.

What was the labelled alcohol level?

I love doing this, and since we have some automated lab equipment at the Winery, I often run the basics on wine I like, and highly rated wines, and messes we come across.

I noted some 16%+ Alcs in some 93+ 2010 Pinots recently (& ph of 3.9 !!!) , which really surprised me since they did not taste hot at all, and it was such a cool growing year…

Actually, not far off. 14.5% for the P and a right-on 15% for CP. Neither had any heat in the mouthfeel.

Why aren’t you disclosing the names? I’d like to avoid P, but now am at a loss. What gives?

A mid-90’s scoring, bretty CdP nicknamed “P”. I wonder what it could be?

Thanks for sharing Roy.

What are the implications of these numbers?

First, I would never post data like this on any US wine because I like to be invited to wine parties and that would end if I did so. I could see a little flack if I disclosed the names, so I want some kind of “plausible deniability.” In fact, since the first wine was pristine and, frankly, inspiring… I have no problem saying it was Clos des Papes.

This guy’s an idiot. Probably Clos de Papes v. Pegau, dipshit.

If not, please advise!!!

I can only say for myself, that someone needs to use better barrels and probably clean their cellar. And that brett to me is a major flaw once it reaches threshold level and it is not terroir and should not be accepted as such.

PS- Oh, and that 15% alcohol is not abnormal for a Mediterranean climate.

I think this is interesting, but I, like Berry, would like you to discuss more fully what you believe all of this means. And when you discuss “threshold levels” are you speaking of the limits of the lab equipment, or are these “taste perception” thresholds?

John, you’re mighty harsh on John there aren’t you? How would you like it if you talked to yourself like that?

Oh… never mind.

That was my thought exactly…but both were pretty easy to deduce from Roy’s description.

Are the last two numbers brett indicators?

Well, I am also interested in the implications, and do not have all the answers, or even close. I am hoping other winemakers can jump in. I’ve never tested a wine I’ve been involved with over 4-EP of 50, and have never seen a number as high as 1900. I was trained to be ultra-clean in the cellars and sanitize everything. I would say I spend fully 1/3 of my time as winemaker sanitizing and cleaning. Brett’s leading culprit is bad, old barrels, but not the only one. I can only assume that P uses old barrels and they may not be sulfuring them, perhaps because they like the flavors it imparts. I do not know their regimen, so it is hard for me to tell from here. The Clos Des Papes is clean and I bet they are, even without knowing their methods, a lot cleaner in the cellar. Are they considered more “modern” in the scheme of things? Someone will need to help me out on them. Their wine had great structure, no heat and tasted very young and pure at 15% alcohol. It adds to my long-held belief that you can hit that alcohol level and still make balanced wine if you do other things right.

The lab can detect it 4-EP and 4-EG at 10 micrograms or higher, I believe. The threshold of a taster is between 140-425 for 4-EP and something like 600 (???) for 4-EG, depending on who you listen to. I think the presence of 4-EG will have an effect on lowering the taste threshold of 4-EP to the lower end of the 140-425 range, but again, since I have never had to deal with a brett-infected wine, I have not made myself and expert on the chemistry of it all. I can say that the brett was obvious from the get go in the nose, and it did not “blow off.” I do not see how it could. I am of the mind that a flaw is a flaw, and contamination is contamination, and it is certainly not terroir, any more than high VA is.

I would be very interested in other winemaker’s interpretation of the data.

interesting…thanks.

This is where I am glad I am not an expert in Chateauneufs. If this mysterious P is known for such a flavor, I really did not know that going in. Clos Des Papes is one I have had before a few times, but pretty much went in with a blank slate on both. The moment I had them, I saw a great chance to run a lab report since they were of similar scores, the same vintage and owned by the same person and opened the same time. They could not have been more different experiences; with one being very to my liking and the other, not.

If they are indeed Clos des Papes and Pegau, both are traditionalist estates, with Pegau having a reputation for rusticity, barnyard, and brett. Some folks really dig it.

I am a little surprised and pleased that Clos des Papes was as clean as you reported.

This is fascinating, Roy. Thanks for posting.

It’s really criminal that so many wineries are so indifferent to putting out a contaminated product that they are willing to release wines with levels of grenache above detectable thresholds.