Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

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Sh@n A
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#51 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 4:52 pm

I genuinely & sincerely appreciate everyone's thoughts and interest.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#52 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 5:17 pm

That sauternes is very acidic, actually.

I'd look for a higher pH wine for your challenge.

Interestingly...you seem to have some correlation with the pH.

Image

https://winefolly.com/review/understand ... y-in-wine/

Remember, each 'point' on the pH scale is a tenfold difference! (Also, the alcohol can make it more irritating than a Coke, even though the Coke has a lower pH. Even vodka is only 1/10th the acidity of the wines you mention.)

The cider is closer in pH to white wine than red wine.

Your general wine flares seem to relate to a low pH, around 3. Pouring that down a gullet that has eosinophilic esophagitis would be excting to watch!

So, you never undertook an antacid trial? It doesn't have to be forever, but can take 6 weeks or more to start showing its benefit. (Watch out for crazy people who say antacids will kill you some way...a 6 weeks trial could answer your question, then you could decide if you want to continue.)

This may be as simple as a pH thing in someone with a delicate food pipe! [cheers.gif]
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#53 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 5:20 pm

Anton, I did the antacid for the esophagitis and it did work.
The PH issue has been raised by others and isn't triggered by coke, lemonade etc. But maybe there is a sweet spot involved (a lower PH is a less an issue)
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#54 Post by Wes Barton » June 10th, 2019, 5:25 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 3:33 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 2:32 pm
What about aldehydes? Another complicated subject with a family of compounds highly involved in wine. "Aldehydes are known sensitizers for small populations of humans and serve to cause chemically induced allergic reactions. The effects of these reactions can be dramatic at rather low concentrations."
Are they more prominent in white vs red?
I don't know about relative prominence.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#55 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 5:37 pm

If anyone is interested in a tasting of a couple of Rieussec next week in NY/Midtown East, please PM me! Will either be Tue or Wed (likely Wed).
Will open another 2001 from the same lot (buying another 2001 is pretty expensive), and it seems I can pick up a 1999, 2004 and 2009 from a single NY retailer who has been an on-time shipper in the past.
Not sure about location, yet (may be super casual).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#56 Post by John Morris » June 10th, 2019, 5:39 pm

I feel like I'm watching a real-life episode of House.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#57 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 5:45 pm

John Morris wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 5:39 pm
I feel like I'm watching a real-life episode of House.
Skin tests, poop tests, blood tests, other tests, elimination diets, gut repair diets, supplements, MDs, functional practitioners (acupuncture, ayurveda, western based).. I've been there. What's interesting is a correlation between many things. 2000 year old Ayurveda has recommended elimination of dairy, tomato/night shades, nuts, chickpeas, anything fermented, and other foods... a lot of these foods later showed up on IGG results years later. I thought homeopathic medicine was quack (and only thing I haven't tried) and have recently been reading about increased medical efficacy of compounds in ultra low/diluted dose (which is what homeopathy is). Next step for me is FMT + a version of Ayurveda/GAPs for an extended period of time and see what happens (a hope, not a strategy, that my gut lining is is damaged and an FMT can help reset it, with aid from past easy-to-digest diets)... and if that doesn't yield incremental improvement... [head-bang.gif] [cheers.gif]
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#58 Post by tcavallo » June 10th, 2019, 6:31 pm

Wow, interesting thread! From that last breakdown, it seems like maybe something in grape skins mitigates or binds the offending compound, which may be a fermentation byproduct and not grape specific, since it happens with ciders as well? How about skin-contact/orange/amber wines?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#59 Post by Evan Pontoriero » June 10th, 2019, 6:37 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm
AFA Serenade it was during grape sampling. It was pretty severe and scary, kind of like anaphylaxis. I thought I may have ruined the wine for me to drink but I don't seem to have a reaction to the wine as I tried a bottle last night without problem, it was delicious.

There are many different amines that could cause problems. Putracine, Cadavarine, lots of Tyramine in bananas and cheese. It would surprise me if they larger European wines since I believe there is a low amine requirement that we have no law for here other than for export to EU.

Looking closer at the symptoms, they don't look like amine problems per se. I know that tannins can cause temporomandibular pain because of the saliva glands going nuts. I've also had some anecdotal evidence that high, late acid adds can cause somewhat similar effects.

Add another wild datapoint. I had a Russian River Zinfandel about 3 months ago that I reacted to. Was a wine trade in the tasting room. It was a AVA bottling, tasting both green and overripe at the same time making me think it was possibly a recovery effort. I only had wine so it surely was the wine but after the first glass I broke out in hives from my knees to my neck. I've never had hives and have not had them since and I've had a lot of wine. Was inside the whole day so that eliminated bug bites etc.
The world can be so capricious! Dang!

Side note: do you take antacids?
I take the generic protonix.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#60 Post by Sh@n A » June 10th, 2019, 6:49 pm

tcavallo wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 6:31 pm
Wow, interesting thread! From that last breakdown, it seems like maybe something in grape skins mitigates or binds the offending compound, which may be a fermentation byproduct and not grape specific, since it happens with ciders as well? How about skin-contact/orange/amber wines?
I recently had a 2013 Olivier Horiat "En Valingrain" Rose with no reaction; I liked the wine too. I was told the producer makes it naturally/native yeast, and that was the reason. I do recall having Rose reactions 5YRs ago and haven't had a Rose in many years... will need to revisit.

At same dinner, I did have a reaction to 2002 Dirler Alsace Grand Crue Spiegel Riesling. I don't believe - but am in retrospect not 100% sure - that I had a reaction to a 2005 Von Schubert Maximin Grünhäuser Abtsberg Riesling Beerenauslese (my WOTY).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#61 Post by JDavisRoby » June 10th, 2019, 7:05 pm

I have a friend who has an oak allergy. Can’t drink whiskey, wine or any other liquid aged in oak barrels. Has similar symptoms without the throat burning.

I’ve never had this level of symptoms but there is no doubt some wines cause reactions for me. Could be red blotches on neck, swelling of hands, nasal stuffiness or racing heart. It’s weird how I react sometimes. Don’t really know the wines that cause issues.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#62 Post by Anton D » June 10th, 2019, 7:18 pm

Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 6:37 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm
Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:09 pm
AFA Serenade it was during grape sampling. It was pretty severe and scary, kind of like anaphylaxis. I thought I may have ruined the wine for me to drink but I don't seem to have a reaction to the wine as I tried a bottle last night without problem, it was delicious.

There are many different amines that could cause problems. Putracine, Cadavarine, lots of Tyramine in bananas and cheese. It would surprise me if they larger European wines since I believe there is a low amine requirement that we have no law for here other than for export to EU.

Looking closer at the symptoms, they don't look like amine problems per se. I know that tannins can cause temporomandibular pain because of the saliva glands going nuts. I've also had some anecdotal evidence that high, late acid adds can cause somewhat similar effects.

Add another wild datapoint. I had a Russian River Zinfandel about 3 months ago that I reacted to. Was a wine trade in the tasting room. It was a AVA bottling, tasting both green and overripe at the same time making me think it was possibly a recovery effort. I only had wine so it surely was the wine but after the first glass I broke out in hives from my knees to my neck. I've never had hives and have not had them since and I've had a lot of wine. Was inside the whole day so that eliminated bug bites etc.
The world can be so capricious! Dang!

Side note: do you take antacids?
I take the generic protonix.
Even more drifty...

Some people get strange allergy manifestations to PPI drugs, like Protonix. If someone does fine under usual circumstances, but, say, has wine closely after or on an empty tummy with a PPI, it might make it easier to notice the PPI hives. I've seen it in 3 people. PPI alone, no issues, PPI with food or time and then wine, no issues, wine along with PPI or on empty tummy = they got a hive flare. We repeated it several times. Fascinating world.


NOT ANY SORT OF DEFINITIVE THING, BUT AN INTERESTING COINCIDENCE, in case you think it fits. This is just chat, nothing like I know the connection.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#63 Post by Evan Pontoriero » June 10th, 2019, 7:50 pm

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 7:18 pm
Evan Pontoriero wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 6:37 pm
Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 1:21 pm


The world can be so capricious! Dang!

Side note: do you take antacids?
I take the generic protonix.
Even more drifty...

Some people get strange allergy manifestations to PPI drugs, like Protonix. If someone does fine under usual circumstances, but, say, has wine closely after or on an empty tummy with a PPI, it might make it easier to notice the PPI hives. I've seen it in 3 people. PPI alone, no issues, PPI with food or time and then wine, no issues, wine along with PPI or on empty tummy = they got a hive flare. We repeated it several times. Fascinating world.


NOT ANY SORT OF DEFINITIVE THING, BUT AN INTERESTING COINCIDENCE, in case you think it fits. This is just chat, nothing like I know the connection.

Good to know. I'll remember this if it happens again. THX
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#64 Post by Evan Pontoriero » June 10th, 2019, 7:52 pm

JDavisRoby wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 7:05 pm

I’ve never had this level of symptoms but there is no doubt some wines cause reactions for me. Could be red blotches on neck, swelling of hands, nasal stuffiness or racing heart. It’s weird how I react sometimes. Don’t really know the wines that cause issues.
This is most definitely amines. Do a google search on "amines and wine" to see the research.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#65 Post by Otto Forsberg » June 10th, 2019, 10:23 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 3:33 pm
Wes Barton wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 2:32 pm
What about aldehydes? Another complicated subject with a family of compounds highly involved in wine. "Aldehydes are known sensitizers for small populations of humans and serve to cause chemically induced allergic reactions. The effects of these reactions can be dramatic at rather low concentrations."
Are they more prominent in white vs red?
The easiest way to test for aldehydes in wine is to get a bottle of Fino Sherry, Vin Jaune or Szamorodni. The typical flavor in all of these wines comes from acetaldehydes.

https://www.wineland.co.za/aldehydes-fr ... no-sherry/ for some further reading.

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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#66 Post by Travis @llen » June 11th, 2019, 9:18 pm

I’ve only had a reaction to wine one time. At an industry tasting of Austrian and German wines (my most consumed wine regions). All the big names were there and many were pouring barrel samples. I felt like the room was getting very hot and my buddy told me my face was bright red. I thought maybe one of the barrel samples had high sulfur or recent lysozyme additions. Never had any problems since and I’ve had the final bottled versions of many of the wines. Another thought would be to look up fining agents for white wines and see if any are a known trigger for you. There are several that could potentially cause allergies. Egg, fish (isenglas) , milk, pvpp, etc...
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#67 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 12th, 2019, 5:46 am

Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 5:17 pm
So, you never undertook an antacid trial? It doesn't have to be forever, but can take 6 weeks or more to start showing its benefit. (Watch out for crazy people who say antacids will kill you some way...a 6 weeks trial could answer your question, then you could decide if you want to continue.)
Like this people... https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1580
Results There were 45.20 excess deaths (95% confidence interval 28.20 to 61.40) per 1000 patients taking PPIs. Circulatory system diseases (number of attributable deaths per 1000 patients taking PPIs 17.47, 95% confidence interval 5.47 to 28.80), neoplasms (12.94, 1.24 to 24.28), infectious and parasitic diseases (4.20, 1.57 to 7.02), and genitourinary system diseases (6.25, 3.22 to 9.24) were associated with taking PPIs. There was a graded relation between cumulative duration of PPI exposure and the risk of all cause mortality and death due to circulatory system diseases, neoplasms, and genitourinary system diseases. Analyses of subcauses of death suggested that taking PPIs was associated with an excess mortality due to cardiovascular disease (15.48, 5.02 to 25.19) and chronic kidney disease (4.19, 1.56 to 6.58). Among patients without documented indication for acid suppression drugs (n=116 377), taking PPIs was associated with an excess mortality due to cardiovascular disease (22.91, 11.89 to 33.57), chronic kidney disease (4.74, 1.53 to 8.05), and upper gastrointestinal cancer (3.12, 0.91 to 5.44). Formal interaction analyses suggested that the risk of death due to these subcauses was not modified by a history of cardiovascular disease, chronic kidney disease, or upper gastrointestinal cancer. Taking PPIs was not associated with an excess burden of transportation related mortality and death due to peptic ulcer disease (as negative outcome controls).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#68 Post by John Morris » June 12th, 2019, 6:19 am

L e o F r o k i c wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 5:46 am
Anton D wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 5:17 pm
So, you never undertook an antacid trial? It doesn't have to be forever, but can take 6 weeks or more to start showing its benefit. (Watch out for crazy people who say antacids will kill you some way...a 6 weeks trial could answer your question, then you could decide if you want to continue.)
Like this people... https://www.bmj.com/content/365/bmj.l1580
Results There were 45.20 excess deaths (95% confidence interval 28.20 to 61.40) per 1000 patients taking PPIs. Circulatory system diseases (number of attributable deaths per 1000 patients taking PPIs 17.47, 95% confidence interval 5.47 to 28.80), neoplasms (12.94, 1.24 to 24.28), infectious and parasitic diseases (4.20, 1.57 to 7.02), and genitourinary system diseases (6.25, 3.22 to 9.24) were associated with taking PPIs. There was a graded relation between cumulative duration of PPI exposure and the risk of all cause mortality and death due to circulatory system diseases, neoplasms, and genitourinary system diseases. Analyses of subcauses of death suggested that taking PPIs was associated with an excess mortality due to cardiovascular disease (15.48, 5.02 to 25.19) and chronic kidney disease (4.19, 1.56 to 6.58). Among patients without documented indication for acid suppression drugs (n=116 377), taking PPIs was associated with an excess mortality due to cardiovascular disease (22.91, 11.89 to 33.57), chronic kidney disease (4.74, 1.53 to 8.05), and upper gastrointestinal cancer (3.12, 0.91 to 5.44). Formal interaction analyses suggested that the risk of death due to these subcauses was not modified by a history of cardiovascular disease, chronic kidney disease, or upper gastrointestinal cancer. Taking PPIs was not associated with an excess burden of transportation related mortality and death due to peptic ulcer disease (as negative outcome controls).
Are you and Anton talking about the same thing? I'm not sure when he referred to antacids whether he meant proton pump inhibitors (PPIs/acid reducers) or simple antacids.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#69 Post by Anton D » June 12th, 2019, 8:14 am

Right on cue, Leo!

[rofl.gif]

Did you notice the time frame, you dipshit? You think a six week antacid trial gonna kilt him? [beatoff.gif]

Tell him to take a vitamin, Leo.

Go look up computer screen radiation risks and the cardiac benefits of niacin supplementation.

Like I said, watch out for crazy, especially antivaxers .
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#70 Post by John Morris » June 12th, 2019, 8:34 am

Anton D wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 8:14 am
Did you notice the time frame... ? You think a six week antacid trial gonna kilt him?
For those who haven't read the study, it tracked people who used PPI's for 10 years.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#71 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 12th, 2019, 8:59 am

John Morris wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 8:34 am
Anton D wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 8:14 am
Did you notice the time frame... ? You think a six week antacid trial gonna kilt him?
For those who haven't read the study, it tracked people who used PPI's for 10 years.
No it didn't, read the study again, it followed people for up to 10 years after initial use....... cohort 201 557 patients who were prescribed more than a 90 day supply of a PPI in the 180 day period after new PPI use. Additionally, 24 061 patients were excluded because they were taking H2 blockers during the 180 day period, resulting in 177 496 new users of PPI. Nowhere does it say that they were using it for 10 years
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#72 Post by John Morris » June 12th, 2019, 9:04 am

You're right Leo.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#73 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 12th, 2019, 9:13 am

Anton D wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 8:14 am

Did you notice the time frame, you dipshit? You think a six week antacid trial gonna kilt him? [beatoff.gif]
Read the study again, they "selected new users of acid suppression drugs between 1 July 2002 and 30 June 2004" not who were using drugs for 10 years, they followed them for up to 10 years and only if the got more than 90 day supply.

We selected new users of acid suppression drugs between 1 July 2002 and 30 June 2004 and followed them for up to 10 years to examine the associations between new use of PPIs and causes of death. New use was defined as having no record of an acid suppression drug prescription between 1 October 1999 and 30 June 2002.

There were 405 490 new users of PPIs. To reduce the probability of misclassification, we further selected from this cohort 201 557 patients who were prescribed more than a 90 day supply of a PPI in the 180 day period after new PPI use. Additionally, 24 061 patients were excluded because they were taking H2 blockers during the 180 day period, resulting in 177 496 new users of PPI.


Anyhow, stop taking everything I say so hard, it's a joke not a dick.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#74 Post by Anton D » June 12th, 2019, 9:27 am

Leo, 6 weeks = 42 days.

Maybe we could talk you into a nice natural datura salad?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#75 Post by D@vid Bu3ker » June 12th, 2019, 9:41 am

L e o F r o k i c wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 9:13 am
it's a joke not a dick.
Seems like it's both. ;)
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#76 Post by Bryan Carr » June 13th, 2019, 10:00 am

This thread is interesting to me because i have something similar though not identical in terms of triggers or symptoms.
From some wines and some beers I get a reaction that ruins my night in its intensity. Itchy mouth, painful gums, severe swelling and pain in my lower esophagus and a painful, foamy indigestion that usually lasts a couple very uncomfortable hours unless i take a benadryl which knocks me out.

The first time it happened was in 2009 after drinking La Fin Du Monde (a canadian belgian style beer made by Unibroue), i got not more than two or three sips in and all the symptoms presented, they were so bad i had to go home and go to bed. This was my first Belgian, so I started experimenting and Belgian-style beers with that sort of apricot or banana type bouquet do this to me pretty much without fail. I avoid. Most other beers are ok, I can drink things like sour beer uneventfully.

The next time it happened was, unfortunately, in 2014 with a Pierre Paillard NV champagne, same reaction. I'd had lots of Champagne up to that point with no reaction, but this particular Champagne was VERY autolytic, so I thought maybe that might be a clue. I've since not stopped drinking Champagne, and only have this reaction about 10% of the time. I love Champagne so I'm willing to take the risk, though it happened at Canlis once which was a bummer. Other regions' sparkling wine doesn't tend to give me this reaction, though I think I've gotten it from a particularly autolytic domestic traditional method sparkler before but I can't remember when. The most recent occurrence was a year or so back with a Guiborat 'Prisme' 13, it absolutely wrecked me. It also happened one time with a leesy Muscadet Sevre et Maine, so I avoid those because I don't care about them or oysters that much. I always have just assumed it is some yeast-strain byproduct that doesn't manifest unless the wine sits on the lees, and only if some particular strain is present.

I can and do drink sherry, Vin Jaune, etc, and reds of all types with no issues. No issues with any other whites either. No issues with other high-acid beverages or food, I don't consume much soda these days but I do on occasion with no problem, and I use lots of fresh lemon and lime juice in my cooking. I'm on no prescription meds and rarely take anything other than tylenol.

No skin reactions, no respiratory reactions.

I also get this reaction from tree nuts, cashews most severely, and from avocado. As a child I used to get itchy mouth from bananas and sometimes melons but that's gone away in my adulthood. Autoimmune issues run in my family (RA, eczema, etc) so that could be a factor.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#77 Post by Sh@n A » June 13th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Bryan Carr wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 10:00 am
I always have just assumed it is some yeast-strain byproduct that doesn't manifest unless the wine sits on the lees, and only if some particular strain is present.
Bryan, perhaps I missed this, but why did you think this? (this my speculation, re a particular strain).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#78 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 13th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Shan,

Just a wild guess here, but what if your problems are caused by the genetically modified (GMO) yeasts. It seems to be mostly in White Wine from what I have noticed in my quick glance thru the literature.

https://www.ajevonline.org/content/43/3/283
Abstract

Genetically modified wine strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae were evaluated in trial fermentations to assess effects of the genetic alterations on fermentation, flavor, and aroma. Chardonnay grapes were fermented by Montrachet (UCD Enology 522), California Champagne (UCD Enology 505), Pasteur Champagne (UCD Enology 595), and corresponding inbred and heterothallic derivatives. The inbred strains had been previously derived from the parents through repeated cycles of sporulation and clonal selection and the heterothallic strains had been constructed by introducing the ho gene by hybridization into the inbred derivatives. Pasteur Champagne and its inbred and heterothallic derivatives fermented at similar rates. The inbred and heterothallic versions of Montrachet fermented at similar rates but more slowly than Montrachet. California Champagne began the fermentation earlier than either of its inbred or heterothallic forms but all three fermented at approximately the same rate. "Difference from control" tests performed by an experienced panel indicated significant differences in flavor and aroma between wines made by California Champagne and both of its derived strains and in flavor alone between wines made by the inbred derivative of Pasteur Champagne and Pasteur Champagne and its heterothallic version. No differences in flavor or aroma were detected between wines produced by Montrachet and its derivatives.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/276f/6 ... aee558.pdf
Abstract: Deacidification of grape musts and wines is important for the production of well-balanced wines. Thebacterial malolactic fermentation (MLF) process is unreliable and stuck MLF often leads to spoilage of wines andthe production of biogenic amines. The genetically engineered wine yeast, ML01, is a Prise de Mousse strain thatcontains the malate transport gene (mae1) from Schizosaccharomyces pombe and the malolactic gene (mleA) fromOenococcus oeni, stably integrated into the genome at the URA3 locus. Both genes were isolated from wine-re-lated microorganisms and are expressed under control of the Saccharomyces cerevisiae PGK1 promoter and ter-minator sequences. ML01 is capable of decarboxylating up to 9.2 g/L of malate to equimolar amounts of lactatein Chardonnay grape must during the alcoholic fermentation. ML01 contains no antibiotic resistance marker genesor vector DNA sequences. The presence of the malolactic cassette in the genome does not affect growth, ethanolproduction, fermentation kinetics, or metabolism of ML01. Wines produced by the ML01 yeast have lower vola-tile acidity and improved color properties than wines produced with the parental yeast and a bacterial MLF. Analysisof the volatile compounds, sensory analyses, and industrial production of wine indicate that ML01 is suitable forthe commercial production of quality wine.Key words: wine, Oenococcus oeni, malolactic ferm
https://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blo ... chardonnay
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#79 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 13th, 2019, 1:32 pm

Maybe you should try wines that were made only using native yeast on the grapes and see how it goes.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#80 Post by L e o F r o k i c » June 13th, 2019, 1:57 pm

Here is a paper from 2005 that talks about modified SC http://repositorium.sdum.uminho.pt/bits ... 05-GMY.pdf
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#81 Post by Bryan Carr » June 13th, 2019, 2:42 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 12:44 pm
Bryan Carr wrote:
June 13th, 2019, 10:00 am
I always have just assumed it is some yeast-strain byproduct that doesn't manifest unless the wine sits on the lees, and only if some particular strain is present.
Bryan, perhaps I missed this, but why did you think this? (this my speculation, re a particular strain).
I just assumed that partially what makes Belgian beer smell and taste the way it does is because of the yeast strain used. Belgians always wreck me and 99% of other fermented beverages don't, so that was partially my conclusion. Also, a lot of the beers that make me ill are cloudy so the lack of lees filtering was another thing that pointed me in the "yeast" direction. Also, what's different between Champagne and many other sparkling wines? Autolytic character caused by long aging on the lees. Same deal with Muscadet SeM. Lees contact is the common thread in all these catalysts. Why some Champagnes set me off and others don't is a mystery but I know that not every Champagne house uses the same yeast strain, and not every house has the same lees contact program so strains could be a factor.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#82 Post by Sh@n A » July 31st, 2019, 10:55 am

This is a quite short update, but I appreciate the notes here and feel I should follow up a little bit. I ended up getting an FMT in the UK (Taymount). During the week of FMT I felt fine/normal, and on day returning back to the U.S. I felt the best ever. And then I crashed a bit, and not feeling so good... what I can tell is my symptoms have all flared up... doesn't bother me for now as I imagine they will recede and the FMT process is not yet complete. However, what HAS happened is I tried 4 red wines recently, and I have had allergic reactions (mild) to 3 of them (!!!!), and its been a wide selection (2016 DeForville Barbaresco, 2010 Massimo Clerico Lessona, random cheap Cali pinot by the glass and 2002 LaFarge Bourgogone) and the one I did not react to ( 2016 Le Clos du Caillou Côtes du Rhône Reserve). These were not like the 2001 Rieussec which was a killer bad reaction, but nevertheless palpable reactions. This never happened before. I confirmed DeForville uses "selected" yeasts, but haven't followed up with the others.

So either (i) my body has become more sensitive to FMT, reacting to something present in all wines, just less of it in reds, or (ii) I've developed a new allergy to reds. I believe it is (i). Will continue with the FMT process and if by year-end not resolved, I may have to go dry for 2YRs and beat the condition generally (which is OK as my cellar is so young that hey it could use some age and my wallet could use a break). I still suspect it yeast related (but don't really know), and suspect the allergy is actually autoimmune related.
Last edited by Sh@n A on July 31st, 2019, 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#83 Post by Hank Victor » July 31st, 2019, 11:37 am

Massimo Clerico uses cultured yeast for their fermentation.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#84 Post by Marcus Goodfellow » July 31st, 2019, 12:56 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
June 10th, 2019, 4:59 am
Anton D wrote:
June 9th, 2019, 8:35 pm
If you are near Chio, CA, we will test you for free
Thanks Anton. I appreciate the sentiment. I assure you I have been tested for a lot of things and in many different ways and if a trip to OH was the answer I’d make it weekly! To give context, I’m going to get an expensive FMT in the UK and am trying to meet the UK doctor who treated the US man (we have minor dialogue but that’s it so far). I have IGE and IGG reactions to many things including Brewers Yeast. The question is what is it about some alcohols, but not all (in the case of many whites/ciders/some beers) that causes instantaneous burning. It may be I am no closer to the answer here. It if it’s species dependent I doubt wineries will share with me their exact purchasing. I should pick up a large swath of SC perhaps to test.. industrial but where is natural SC to be found?
All commercial yeasts are isolated from naturally present strains. They aren’t “created” or “industrial”. The VAST majority of those natural strains and the commercial ones isolated from them are Saccharomyces Cerevisia or Saccharomyces Bayanus.

I use all native ferments on my Pinot Noirs, and the natural yeasts available from vineyard or cellar, pretty much anywhere in the world are Saccharomyces. The commercially available species are all isolated from naturally occurring species.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#85 Post by Sh@n A » July 31st, 2019, 2:10 pm

I am not sure about yeast, but commercial probiotics do not behave the same way as native probiotics. E.G., commercial probiotics do not survive in the body (they pass through) vs. an FMT taken from a human donor will colonize. I imagine commercial yeasts have similar differences to truly organic/native yeasts. Further, there are very few probiotic/yeast manufacturers in the world, the entire universe of industrial strains is actually very small vs. the billions of natural strains that exist in the environment (unless winemakers are buying cultivating separately, these are absolutely industrial products).
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#86 Post by Sh@n A » July 31st, 2019, 5:29 pm

2000 Figeac seems OK (no throat reaction).

I am going to order a selection of wine yeast off the internet and test them out.
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#87 Post by Wes Barton » July 31st, 2019, 10:51 pm

Sh@n A wrote:
July 31st, 2019, 2:10 pm
I am not sure about yeast, but commercial probiotics do not behave the same way as native probiotics. E.G., commercial probiotics do not survive in the body (they pass through) vs. an FMT taken from a human donor will colonize. I imagine commercial yeasts have similar differences to truly organic/native yeasts. Further, there are very few probiotic/yeast manufacturers in the world, the entire universe of industrial strains is actually very small vs. the billions of natural strains that exist in the environment (unless winemakers are buying cultivating separately, these are absolutely industrial products).
When you ingest probiotics you're introducing them to an existing ecosystem. In a healthy person, that means they'd have to outcompete something that's already there thriving in a role in a complex interrelationship. In an unhealthy person, that still means hit or miss if they can find a foothold. A diet that fosters a healthy ecosystem is crucial. You need to be feeding the good microbes for them to be effective, and watching the portion and proportion of foods that can spur a population explosion of problematic microbes. It's not that they're commercially isolated, just that taking them is a nonsensical non-solution for most people. They can be very helpful as part of a recovery from something like an antibiotic regime having battered your gut biome.

I'd actually liken adding a commercial yeast to getting an FMT. In cases were you actually need to use one (rather than desired impact of a certain strain or a level of quality control) it's because there's a deficiency or undesired activity. You want to prevent a problem, outcompete a problem or resolve a problem. That usually relates to macronutrient or micronutrient deficiencies. (Again, like human health, you can easily test for and supplement macronutrients.)

The thing with yeasts in a ferment if you start native, you're starting with a population of zero to about one in a million microbe cells being s. cerevisae. They find their way in through various vectors, like the winery workers' hands. (Guess what? These are often "escaped" isolated strains.) Then they take over, outcompeting (notably with their high tolerance to ethanol toxicity). The other extreme is nuking the must with SO2 to kill everything, the inoculating a day later. Still, guess what? Other yeasts get in. They can outcompete what you inoculated with. A ferm, as an everchanging environment, can go through multiple phases where one yeast dominates, then loses out to another, then that one to another, etc. Say, you divide your must uniformly between 4 fermentation vessels and start them exactly the same way. Testing a few days later, you could find a different dominant yeast in each. They can each finish with a different yeast. Even if it's fairly stable between vessels in a given year, it's often a different strain dominating/finishing the next year.

Then, it's going to be pretty random which strains are a problem for you, and which aren't. Strains are isolated for different usefulnesses. Low nutrient requirement, flavor and aromatic compounds they impart and how well they "play" with a given grape variety, ability to dominate and complete a ferm, high ethanol tolerance, etc. Steering clear of commercially isolated strains won't get you anywhere. It'll still be trial and error with each wine. A wine that's fine one vintage may be a problem the next.

If your problem is biogenic amines, yeast production isn't the only source, anyway. Pollen from nearby plants, perhaps, insects. From grapes, there should be other variables, such as grape variety and clone, a plethora of site features, vintage dynamics, harvest date, etc. that relate to the precursors and the dynamics of biochemical pathway that result in a problem or not. Does fermentation temperature, duration, vessel or anything else in processing play a role?

I don't think anyone can truly answer all that. Maybe in a specific case there'd be a day and night difference between pressing early and an extended maceration? Who knows?
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Re: Saccharomyces cerevisiae in wine making/allergies

#88 Post by Anton D » August 6th, 2019, 9:26 am

Wow, found this place while looking for something else.

There may be individual items you could play with and challenge yourself.

https://labelpeelers.com/additives/
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