TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

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Jim Stewart
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TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#1 Post by Jim Stewart » March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm

I picked up a 2017 Domaine William Fevre Chablis at Costco recently ($25) to try. I decided to pair it in a “taste-off” with a 2015 Domaine Laroche Chablis Saint Martin (about the same price) which I also hadn’t tried yet. Poured small glasses of each for my wife and myself to go with our weekly cheese plate and baguette “dinner”. The Fevre was the faintest pale yellow; the Laroche noticeably but only slightly richer yellow. No strong nose on either. My wife was ready to render judgement after a small sip of each, but I told her to hold off until I gave them a more rigorous and complete evaluation. It took me one small sip of each also to decide the Laroche was “meh” and the Fevre was “pretty, pretty good”. The Laroche seemed “hollow” if that makes any sense, as if there was a hole where I expected or at least hoped for some substance. It was not distasteful, but almost tasteless. No discernable fruit. Slight bitter finish. The Fevre on the other hand was a “dancer”, very light on its feet, showing bright delicious lemon fruit, nice balanced acid, a full mouthfeel. Not sure how “serious” a Chablis this might be, but it a very tasty one to me. I sense it is the type of wine that casual wine drinkers would enjoy and even the discerning among us would be pleased to have another glass. Delicious and recommended

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#2 Post by Howard Cooper » March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm

Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#3 Post by Nick Kra Mar Ski » March 24th, 2019, 7:13 pm

Great value, Fevre

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#4 Post by Nathan Smyth » March 24th, 2019, 7:36 pm

In this price range, I like to try the wines for as many days as possible, and watch their oxidation curves.

Most of the wines around here are only consumed at the rate of about a glass per day, so it's imperative to find wines which don't fall apart too quickly.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#5 Post by Kris Patten » March 24th, 2019, 8:35 pm

I think vintage may have trumped producer in your taste off, thanks for the note, will keep an eye out at Costco.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#6 Post by RichardFlack » March 24th, 2019, 8:49 pm

I’ve found several lower end 2015s are “meh” or at best easy.
With very limited exposure to 2017, I’d say Kris is right about the vintage differential.

In general at this price pont I prefer Drouhin-Voudon basic over the Laroche (these are the two standbys on the KGBO general list regularly available here). Fevre is good but not always quite as available here.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#7 Post by Michae1 P0wers » March 25th, 2019, 12:34 pm

Kris Patten wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 8:35 pm
I think vintage may have trumped producer in your taste off, thanks for the note, will keep an eye out at Costco.
I agree that '17 is a much better vintage, but wouldn't particularly expect '15s to be "almost tasteless." Most of the '15s Chablis I have had has been too ripe, lacking energy, acidity and tension. Some have been good though slightly more in a Cote d'Or mold.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#8 Post by Jim Stewart » March 26th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
March 25th, 2019, 12:34 pm
Kris Patten wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 8:35 pm
I think vintage may have trumped producer in your taste off, thanks for the note, will keep an eye out at Costco.
I agree that '17 is a much better vintage, but wouldn't particularly expect '15s to be "almost tasteless." Most of the '15s Chablis I have had has been too ripe, lacking energy, acidity and tension. Some have been good though slightly more in a Cote d'Or mold.
Michael, I wanted to reconsider my rush to judgement on the Laroche '15, in light of both your comments and also today's "Jusse" turnaround. I am sipping another glass from the same bottle right now, and thinking "unappealing" is more appropriate than "almost tasteless". There is a taste, but it is one that I do not recognize as a decent wine taste. Your choice of words might be better ones - the lack of "energy, acidity, and tension" definitely fit. Being "too ripe" might also apply, but it is not a taste that I know. Is it a bitter fruit attack on the palate, versus a fresh fruit sense? Anyway, thanks for your comments and observations. [cheers.gif] -Jim

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#9 Post by Michae1 P0wers » March 26th, 2019, 6:43 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Michael, I wanted to reconsider my rush to judgement on the Laroche '15, in light of both your comments and also today's "Jusse" turnaround. I am sipping another glass from the same bottle right now, and thinking "unappealing" is more appropriate than "almost tasteless". There is a taste, but it is one that I do not recognize as a decent wine taste. Your choice of words might be better ones - the lack of "energy, acidity, and tension" definitely fit. Being "too ripe" might also apply, but it is not a taste that I know. Is it a bitter fruit attack on the palate, versus a fresh fruit sense? Anyway, thanks for your comments and observations. [cheers.gif] -Jim
Hard to say Jim although I do think bitterness can come from some grapes with overripeness. Mostly with 2015 Chablis, some examples have tasted like a decent white burgundy, but not like Chablis, while others have nearly tasted flat and lifeless, more like generic Chardonnay. But tension and vibrant acidity, overall crispness, are the things I most look for in Chablis. The ripeness of 2015, at least in the young and mostly villages wines I tried, obliterated those vibrant qualities. I did not put much money there, waiting for 2016 and 2017 instead.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#10 Post by J.Vizuete » March 26th, 2019, 9:12 pm

Domaine Costal Chablis Les Truffieres imported by Kermit Lynch would be another to put in this group. I think that bottle and WF Champs Royeaux (a different bottle than the appellation wine above). Are the tops for village level Chablis
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#11 Post by Michae1 P0wers » March 27th, 2019, 7:03 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
March 26th, 2019, 9:12 pm
Domaine Costal Chablis Les Truffieres imported by Kermit Lynch would be another to put in this group. I think that bottle and WF Champs Royeaux (a different bottle than the appellation wine above). Are the tops for village level Chablis
I'm not a particular fan of either of those wines. It seems to be generally agreed that Raveneau (which I've never had) and Dauvissat are the tops, but they are priced accordingly. Billaud-Simon, Pattes-Loup, Patrick Piuze, Droin, Tribut, and Louis Michel are all names I prefer to Fevre's CR or Costal. For a similar price to the Fevre CR (which is the lesser negociant entry compared to the Domaine bottling Jim tried) I like Gilbert Picq or Chablisienne, which is a coop but still makes very good Chablis for the price.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#12 Post by J.Vizuete » March 27th, 2019, 7:33 am

I've had 1ere (montee de tonnere, vaillons, etc) from Louis Michel and Billaud-Simon but not their village chablis, nor any the others you mentioned. I would assume based on the very good examples I've tried that village chablis would be top notch, too. I appreciate the difference in opinion re: Costal Truffieres and Champs Royeaux, but stand by my assertion that these are good wines to compare at the $25 and under price point, having tried multiple vintages of each.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#13 Post by Michae1 P0wers » March 27th, 2019, 8:07 am

J.Vizuete wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 7:33 am
I've had 1ere (montee de tonnere, vaillons, etc) from Louis Michel and Billaud-Simon but not their village chablis, nor any the others you mentioned. I would assume based on the very good examples I've tried that village chablis would be top notch, too. I appreciate the difference in opinion re: Costal Truffieres and Champs Royeaux, but stand by my assertion that these are good wines to compare at the $25 and under price point, having tried multiple vintages of each.
Sorry Joe, didn't mean to suggest they wouldn't be a good comparison. I was just responding to your statement that they "are the tops in village level chablis," and suggesting alternative villages chablis I like. Most of those I mentioned are admittedly over $25, though I've found Droin and Michel 1ers and villages at under $25 from time to time, and even B-S, Tribut and Piuze villages for under but in the more distant past. IMO the Fevre CR for the sub-$20 price point is certainly a good bargain, particularly in a strong vintage, but I haven't enjoyed the Costal wines I've had and sometimes feel like Lynch is pricing things higher than they should be by attaching his name.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#14 Post by larry schaffer » March 27th, 2019, 8:31 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
I picked up a 2017 Domaine William Fevre Chablis at Costco recently ($25) to try. I decided to pair it in a “taste-off” with a 2015 Domaine Laroche Chablis Saint Martin (about the same price) which I also hadn’t tried yet. Poured small glasses of each for my wife and myself to go with our weekly cheese plate and baguette “dinner”. The Fevre was the faintest pale yellow; the Laroche noticeably but only slightly richer yellow. No strong nose on either. My wife was ready to render judgement after a small sip of each, but I told her to hold off until I gave them a more rigorous and complete evaluation. It took me one small sip of each also to decide the Laroche was “meh” and the Fevre was “pretty, pretty good”. The Laroche seemed “hollow” if that makes any sense, as if there was a hole where I expected or at least hoped for some substance. It was not distasteful, but almost tasteless. No discernable fruit. Slight bitter finish. The Fevre on the other hand was a “dancer”, very light on its feet, showing bright delicious lemon fruit, nice balanced acid, a full mouthfeel. Not sure how “serious” a Chablis this might be, but it a very tasty one to me. I sense it is the type of wine that casual wine drinkers would enjoy and even the discerning among us would be pleased to have another glass. Delicious and recommended
Awesome note - thank you! Quick questions:

1) What temperature were these served at?
2) Did you note big differences at the same temp with aeration?
3) What happened when the wines got closer to room temperature?

Cheers!
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#15 Post by Jim Stewart » March 27th, 2019, 8:45 am

larry schaffer wrote:
March 27th, 2019, 8:31 am
Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
I picked up a 2017 Domaine William Fevre Chablis at Costco recently ($25) to try. I decided to pair it in a “taste-off” with a 2015 Domaine Laroche Chablis Saint Martin (about the same price) which I also hadn’t tried yet. Poured small glasses of each for my wife and myself to go with our weekly cheese plate and baguette “dinner”. The Fevre was the faintest pale yellow; the Laroche noticeably but only slightly richer yellow. No strong nose on either. My wife was ready to render judgement after a small sip of each, but I told her to hold off until I gave them a more rigorous and complete evaluation. It took me one small sip of each also to decide the Laroche was “meh” and the Fevre was “pretty, pretty good”. The Laroche seemed “hollow” if that makes any sense, as if there was a hole where I expected or at least hoped for some substance. It was not distasteful, but almost tasteless. No discernable fruit. Slight bitter finish. The Fevre on the other hand was a “dancer”, very light on its feet, showing bright delicious lemon fruit, nice balanced acid, a full mouthfeel. Not sure how “serious” a Chablis this might be, but it a very tasty one to me. I sense it is the type of wine that casual wine drinkers would enjoy and even the discerning among us would be pleased to have another glass. Delicious and recommended
Awesome note - thank you! Quick questions:

1) What temperature were these served at?
2) Did you note big differences at the same temp with aeration?
3) What happened when the wines got closer to room temperature?

Cheers!
The wines were first served at refrigerator temperature and a couple of small glass of each were consumed with a cheese plate over an hour or so. Only aeration and warming was what occurred after pouring into the glass, but we had a consistent preference for the Fevre bottling over that short time. We did not really notice or pay close attention to any changes taking place. I like your thinking though, and will try this with the remaining glass or so of these two wines. At the risk of biasing my "experiment", do you have an expectation on what might take place as the wines aerate and warm a bit, Larry?

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#16 Post by larry schaffer » March 27th, 2019, 8:51 am

Jim,

Thanks for the feedback - and the additional questions. Truly hard to say, but my guess is that the Laroche would take on more body as it warmed closer to room temperature, but the bitterness might be enhanced, and not in a good way. The Fevre would probably 'sing' even more - but I would wonder how it's texture would show since it was 'lighter' than the other. But this is just conjecture - and why we play the game, right?

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#17 Post by Jim Stewart » March 27th, 2019, 2:50 pm

I was curious to taste these two wines over time a little more attentively, prompted Larry’s questions and to see what changes might occur. These wines were opened three days ago and tasted as in the TN, then vac-vined, and refrigerated. I had a small glass of each last night and the same tonight. I took a tiny sip of each wine just out of the fridge tonight and found them very similar to the original TN. I had my first real tastes with 10 minutes at room temperature. The Laroche had a slightly sour fruit bitterness touching on lemon , a bit disjointed aftertaste, and still what I called a ”hollow” taste; the Fevre was beautiful fruity lemon crispiness continuing fluidly to a brief and pleasant lemon-jolt aftertaste After 20 minutes I tasted again. The same sensations as earlier, with the Laroche still lacking in acid, energy and tension (borrowing Michael’s fitting words) and the Fevre hitting all the right notes for me, lemon even more pronounced. Would love to have this with a nice piece of fish in a lemon butter sauce. I am not a Chablis drinker (might become one), but this reminded me a bit of a good Sancerre, or at least having the same citrusy edgy energy that I enjoy in Sancerre. Maybe that is why I am so much more enjoying the Fevre. Went back to the glasses at 30 minutes and slowly finished them over a half hour or so. The Laroche seems to have lost its bitterness, has some faint fruit, but is still a bit unappealing and hollow to my taste. The Fevre seems to have calmed down a bit, all tastes still there but at lower volume not as scintillating, nicely balanced, maybe becoming more “grown up”, a wine one could actually think about a bit. I am enjoying it very much but it has become softer, not in a bad sense . I am sure that I much prefer the Fevre, but not sure which of the stages I actually prefer. Interesting. Thanks Larry.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#18 Post by Hank Victor » July 9th, 2019, 11:26 am

Had a bottle of the 17 Laroche Saint Martin this weekend and it was great. Extremely crisp packed with bright citrus and white blossom.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#19 Post by William Kelley » July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
They're still good! And very much in the same style. 2017s showing very well a month or so ago when I visited.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#20 Post by William Kelley » July 9th, 2019, 12:30 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
I picked up a 2017 Domaine William Fevre Chablis at Costco recently ($25) to try. I decided to pair it in a “taste-off” with a 2015 Domaine Laroche Chablis Saint Martin (about the same price) which I also hadn’t tried yet. Poured small glasses of each for my wife and myself to go with our weekly cheese plate and baguette “dinner”. The Fevre was the faintest pale yellow; the Laroche noticeably but only slightly richer yellow. No strong nose on either. My wife was ready to render judgement after a small sip of each, but I told her to hold off until I gave them a more rigorous and complete evaluation. It took me one small sip of each also to decide the Laroche was “meh” and the Fevre was “pretty, pretty good”. The Laroche seemed “hollow” if that makes any sense, as if there was a hole where I expected or at least hoped for some substance. It was not distasteful, but almost tasteless. No discernable fruit. Slight bitter finish. The Fevre on the other hand was a “dancer”, very light on its feet, showing bright delicious lemon fruit, nice balanced acid, a full mouthfeel. Not sure how “serious” a Chablis this might be, but it a very tasty one to me. I sense it is the type of wine that casual wine drinkers would enjoy and even the discerning among us would be pleased to have another glass. Delicious and recommended
St Martin is quite a big cuvée from Laroche, you would likely have better luck with the Vieille Voye bottling, especially in 2015.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#21 Post by Jim Stewart » July 9th, 2019, 1:00 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:30 pm
Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
I picked up a 2017 Domaine William Fevre Chablis at Costco recently ($25) to try. I decided to pair it in a “taste-off” with a 2015 Domaine Laroche Chablis Saint Martin (about the same price) which I also hadn’t tried yet. Poured small glasses of each for my wife and myself to go with our weekly cheese plate and baguette “dinner”. The Fevre was the faintest pale yellow; the Laroche noticeably but only slightly richer yellow. No strong nose on either. My wife was ready to render judgement after a small sip of each, but I told her to hold off until I gave them a more rigorous and complete evaluation. It took me one small sip of each also to decide the Laroche was “meh” and the Fevre was “pretty, pretty good”. The Laroche seemed “hollow” if that makes any sense, as if there was a hole where I expected or at least hoped for some substance. It was not distasteful, but almost tasteless. No discernable fruit. Slight bitter finish. The Fevre on the other hand was a “dancer”, very light on its feet, showing bright delicious lemon fruit, nice balanced acid, a full mouthfeel. Not sure how “serious” a Chablis this might be, but it a very tasty one to me. I sense it is the type of wine that casual wine drinkers would enjoy and even the discerning among us would be pleased to have another glass. Delicious and recommended
St Martin is quite a big cuvée from Laroche, you would likely have better luck with the Vieille Voye bottling, especially in 2015.
Thank you for the suggestion, William. I will be on the lookout for the VV bottling.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#22 Post by Howard Cooper » July 9th, 2019, 1:54 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
They're still good! And very much in the same style. 2017s showing very well a month or so ago when I visited.
Glad to read this. I really liked Stephane Moreau the one time I met him. I hope that things continue to go well so that his family is taken care of.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#23 Post by Mattstolz » July 9th, 2019, 5:39 pm

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 1:54 pm
William Kelley wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
They're still good! And very much in the same style. 2017s showing very well a month or so ago when I visited.
Glad to read this. I really liked Stephane Moreau the one time I met him. I hope that things continue to go well so that his family is taken care of.
I actually came into comment about their newest release basic Chablis that I just finished tonight and really enjoyed. the Chablis is not overly complex, but it hits all the notes you want for a regional level chablis and the price.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#24 Post by Dan Kravitz » July 9th, 2019, 5:51 pm

My opinion, worth exactly what it costs: Fevre is a better producer than Laroche.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#25 Post by Brad England » July 9th, 2019, 6:11 pm

William Kelley wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
They're still good! And very much in the same style. 2017s showing very well a month or so ago when I visited.
William. What's your macro view of 2017 white Burgundy. All the anecdotal points of view I'm hearing are that it's as good in it's own way as 2014. Your thoughts?
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#26 Post by Nathan Smyth » July 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Inexpensive
You just threw $50 [+ sales tax] at two wines, neither of which you seem crazy about.

In many states, with sales tax [plus whatever time & effort went into getting to the retailer & back home again, such as burning gasoline at $3 per gallon], you'd have easily invested $60 in this tasting.

In retrospect, would you still say that this endeavor qualifies as "Inexpensive"?

[It's not a trick question - I'm honestly curious whether throwing sixty bucks at meh/mediocre wines makes the hair on the back of your neck start standing up at attention. FTR, I just did the same thing last week - at the exactly the same price points - and I wasn't thrilled with the results.]

EDIT: We've been using this method for more than a year now - I'll go to the store, and get two [or three or four] wines from the same category [or similar wines which scratch more-or-less the same itch], and we'll make small pours of each wine, and study them together for about a week, and then we'll only place a large order for the wines which stand up best under the strain of the extended oxidative analysis.

But we're on a very rare 2-week losing streak at the moment.
Last edited by Nathan Smyth on July 9th, 2019, 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#27 Post by julianseersmartin » July 9th, 2019, 7:13 pm

Louis Michel is my goto value Chablis producer. His wines at every level are fantastic and reliable.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#28 Post by Jim Stewart » July 9th, 2019, 9:43 pm

Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Inexpensive
You just threw $50 [+ sales tax] at two wines, neither of which you seem crazy about.

In many states, with sales tax [plus whatever time & effort went into getting to the retailer & back home again, such as burning gasoline at $3 per gallon], you'd have easily invested $60 in this tasting.

In retrospect, would you still say that this endeavor qualifies as "Inexpensive"?

[It's not a trick question - I'm honestly curious whether throwing sixty bucks at meh/mediocre wines makes the hair on the back of your neck start standing up at attention. FTR, I just did the same thing last week - at the exactly the same price points - and I wasn't thrilled with the results.]

EDIT: We've been using this method for more than a year now - I'll go to the store, and get two [or three or four] wines from the same category [or similar wines which scratch more-or-less the same itch], and we'll make small pours of each wine, and study them together for about a week, and then we'll only place a large order for the wines which stand up best under the strain of the extended oxidative analysis.

But we're on a very rare 2-week losing streak at the moment.
Puzzling comments, but I'll respond. The term "inexpensive" was used relatively and I actually found the Fevre "delicious and recommmended" not meh/mediocre. Cheers.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#29 Post by William Kelley » July 10th, 2019, 6:13 am

Brad England wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:11 pm
William Kelley wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 12:26 pm
Howard Cooper wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:13 pm
Two more basic Chablis you may want to try are by Christian Moreau and Moreau-Naudet. I am more sure about the Moreau-Naudet wines from 2015 and before. Stephane Moreau died in August of 2016. I understand his wife is now making the wine, but I have not tried any yet.
They're still good! And very much in the same style. 2017s showing very well a month or so ago when I visited.
William. What's your macro view of 2017 white Burgundy. All the anecdotal points of view I'm hearing are that it's as good in it's own way as 2014. Your thoughts?
That's a big question, but in brief, it's a lovely white Burgundy vintage. It's lower in acidity and generally more floral and expressive than 2014, but still nicely succulent, with lots of charm but tension, too. And the wines have become tighter-knit with élevage - something that was especially noticeable at the best Chablis producers I visited, and also chez Guffens-Heynen in the Mâconnais, but also to some extent in the Côte d'Or. It's quite consistently good from the Mâconnais up to Chablis (with a special shout out, while I think of it, for Vincent Dureuil-Janthial's Rully whites, which are the best I've ever tasted from him). John Gilman compared 2017 whites to 1992, and the more I think about it, the more that makes sense as the best analogy out there. So the style of 2017 is really quite different from the style of 2014, but it is a very high quality vintage.

I have purchased and am purchasing quite broadly for my own cellar: in no particular order, I've bought Hubert Lamy, Niellon, Guffens-Heynen, Dureuil-Janthial, J Carillon, a bit of Rapet, Dauvissat, Raveneau, Moreau-Naudet, Sauzet, Marc Colin and will be buying Ramonet, as well as a bit of Coche and Lafon since it's my daughter's birth year.
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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#30 Post by Nathan Smyth » July 10th, 2019, 8:04 pm

Jim Stewart wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 9:43 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Inexpensive
You just threw $50 [+ sales tax] at two wines, neither of which you seem crazy about.

In many states, with sales tax [plus whatever time & effort went into getting to the retailer & back home again, such as burning gasoline at $3 per gallon], you'd have easily invested $60 in this tasting.

In retrospect, would you still say that this endeavor qualifies as "Inexpensive"?

[It's not a trick question - I'm honestly curious whether throwing sixty bucks at meh/mediocre wines makes the hair on the back of your neck start standing up at attention. FTR, I just did the same thing last week - at the exactly the same price points - and I wasn't thrilled with the results.]

EDIT: We've been using this method for more than a year now - I'll go to the store, and get two [or three or four] wines from the same category [or similar wines which scratch more-or-less the same itch], and we'll make small pours of each wine, and study them together for about a week, and then we'll only place a large order for the wines which stand up best under the strain of the extended oxidative analysis.

But we're on a very rare 2-week losing streak at the moment.
Puzzling comments, but I'll respond. The term "inexpensive" was used relatively and I actually found the Fevre "delicious and recommmended" not meh/mediocre. Cheers.
Still, though, I'm curious: In many states, you would have just thrown about $60 at the problem.

Maybe that's chump change in your household, but to my ear, the adjective "Inexpensive" sounds incongruous [relative to the sum total of your tasting notes].

I think I might have titled it something more like "Expensive Learning Experience".

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#31 Post by James Billy » July 10th, 2019, 8:55 pm

Price is a very subjective and touchy subject!

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#32 Post by Jim Stewart » July 11th, 2019, 4:01 am

You make some "interesting" points Nathan . . .
Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:04 pm
Still, though, I'm curious: In many states, you would have just thrown about $60 at the problem.
I didn't see it as a "problem"; I bought the two Chablis at different times; Each was about $25; I decided to open both at the same time to compare; I drank them over several days; I liked one of them very much; I did not care for the other one; I posted a TN.
Maybe that's chump change in your household, but to my ear, the adjective "Inexpensive" sounds incongruous [relative to the sum total of your tasting notes.
Nathan, If I asked you to interpret it not as "Inexpensive Wine" but as "Inexpensive Chablis" does that sound less incongruous? Additionally, think of the word in the context of the price of many wines tasted on this forum. I was trying to set expectations a bit - not so much inexpensive to me, but inexpensive in the context of Chablis and in the context of the forum. You are correct that I am in the lower end of this forum's range of prices paid for wine. My tasting notes will confirm.
I think I might have titled it something more like "Expensive Learning Experience".
That would have been another way to go . . .

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#33 Post by Michae1 P0wers » July 11th, 2019, 6:49 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 4:01 am
You make some "interesting" points Nathan . . .
Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:04 pm
Still, though, I'm curious: In many states, you would have just thrown about $60 at the problem.
I didn't see it as a "problem"; I bought the two Chablis at different times; Each was about $25; I decided to open both at the same time to compare; I drank them over several days; I liked one of them very much; I did not care for the other one; I posted a TN.
Maybe that's chump change in your household, but to my ear, the adjective "Inexpensive" sounds incongruous [relative to the sum total of your tasting notes.
Nathan, If I asked you to interpret it not as "Inexpensive Wine" but as "Inexpensive Chablis" does that sound less incongruous? Additionally, think of the word in the context of the price of many wines tasted on this forum. I was trying to set expectations a bit - not so much inexpensive to me, but inexpensive in the context of Chablis and in the context of the forum. You are correct that I am in the lower end of this forum's range of prices paid for wine. My tasting notes will confirm.
I think I might have titled it something more like "Expensive Learning Experience".
That would have been another way to go . . .

[cheers.gif]
Jim, I think 99+% of readers here would agree with you that these are relatively inexpensive Chablis and make for interesting comparison. Nathan has a bizarre agenda with wine pricing in which he attacks various categories (Chablis having been, oddly, a particularly common target) as being outrageous. He'll then cherry pick the most egregiously priced wines off of W-S as "evidence" for his position. When presented with ample opinions of wines from other posters who see good value in the category, he has recently quibbled about their critic's scores as evidence that those recommended, better-priced wines aren't good enough. I find this approach extremely odd, but at least he's consistent.

On the other hand, you've used Costco pricing, so hardly something that is a one-off deal at a local store, and widely available wines for your comparison. Obviously there are both cheaper and more expensive options, but you happened to try and post about these. All in all your experience is reasonably inexpensive and easily reproducible. It speaks to two recent vintages and two widely distributed producers. So thanks.

My wine budget is quite limited compared to the Berserker norm, but I hardly think that $25 Chablis qualifies as an expensive learning experience, at least around here. It seems safe to say that at under $30 a bottle it's odd to get called out on WB for wines being too expensive. Personally I think Chablis still offers a ton of value, particularly for a style of wine I really enjoy. '14 and '17 in particular have been strong opportunities to buy excellent wine at decent pricing. My strategy runs more towards going deep when I see a good deal on a producer I like in a vintage I like, rather than buying broadly in every vintage, but that's just budgetary constraints and the fact that there's just too much good wine out there I'd like to buy.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#34 Post by RichardFlack » July 11th, 2019, 7:18 am

James Billy wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 8:55 pm
Price is a very subjective and touchy subject!
It’s relative. These are (somewhat) inexpensive white burgundies. But for they are definitely mid priced for daily drinkers.

....

+1 on the Moreau Chablis 2017. My limited tasting of 2017 Chablis so far suggests it is v good (a Julien Brocard tasting recently was excellent).

I mentioned Drouhin-Vaudon earlier as generally preferable and more consistent relative to vintage than Laroche. Brocard Ste Claire used to be on my list but a couple of misses lately.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#35 Post by Howard Cooper » July 11th, 2019, 9:13 am

Jim Stewart wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 9:43 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm
Jim Stewart wrote:
March 24th, 2019, 5:06 pm
Inexpensive
You just threw $50 [+ sales tax] at two wines, neither of which you seem crazy about.

In many states, with sales tax [plus whatever time & effort went into getting to the retailer & back home again, such as burning gasoline at $3 per gallon], you'd have easily invested $60 in this tasting.

In retrospect, would you still say that this endeavor qualifies as "Inexpensive"?

[It's not a trick question - I'm honestly curious whether throwing sixty bucks at meh/mediocre wines makes the hair on the back of your neck start standing up at attention. FTR, I just did the same thing last week - at the exactly the same price points - and I wasn't thrilled with the results.]

EDIT: We've been using this method for more than a year now - I'll go to the store, and get two [or three or four] wines from the same category [or similar wines which scratch more-or-less the same itch], and we'll make small pours of each wine, and study them together for about a week, and then we'll only place a large order for the wines which stand up best under the strain of the extended oxidative analysis.

But we're on a very rare 2-week losing streak at the moment.
Puzzling comments, but I'll respond. The term "inexpensive" was used relatively and I actually found the Fevre "delicious and recommmended" not meh/mediocre. Cheers.
Jim, I assume that you could afford the wines you bought. Many if not most of us like to try wines that are new to us, sometimes we like them, sometimes we don't. I don't think you should have to be called to account to how you spend your money or apologize for buying $25 wines to try. If someone cannot afford these wines, they should not buy them, but how you spend your money is up to you, not up to me or anyone else on the board. Not only was the post that you responded to offensive, but it also has an unnecessary chilling effect on board participation. I learn from posts about wines people like and wines people do not like. I would hate for people to be reluctant to post about wines on this board because some jealous person doesn't like how they spend their money. Thank you for your posts.
Howard

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#36 Post by Howard Cooper » July 11th, 2019, 9:18 am

William Kelley wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 6:13 am


I have purchased and am purchasing quite broadly for my own cellar: in no particular order, I've bought Hubert Lamy, Niellon, Guffens-Heynen, Dureuil-Janthial, J Carillon, a bit of Rapet, Dauvissat, Raveneau, Moreau-Naudet, Sauzet, Marc Colin and will be buying Ramonet, as well as a bit of Coche and Lafon since it's my daughter's birth year.
I am interested that you have bought some Marc Colin wines. I have been interested that some stores have been touting the wines of Joseph Colin (does he still make the wines for his father Marc?) when the store is selling the Joseph Colin wines for more than they are selling Marc Colin wines from the same vintage and appellation. Any thoughts between the two producers? Note, I have very much enjoyed the wines of Marc Colin over the years but have not tasted any wines by Joseph Colin, so this is a pure question.
Howard

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#37 Post by Jim Stewart » July 11th, 2019, 9:59 am

Michae1 P0wers wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 6:49 am
. . .
My wine budget is quite limited compared to the Berserker norm, but I hardly think that $25 Chablis qualifies as an expensive learning experience, at least around here. It seems safe to say that at under $30 a bottle it's odd to get called out on WB for wines being too expensive. Personally I think Chablis still offers a ton of value, particularly for a style of wine I really enjoy. '14 and '17 in particular have been strong opportunities to buy excellent wine at decent pricing. My strategy runs more towards going deep when I see a good deal on a producer I like in a vintage I like, rather than buying broadly in every vintage, but that's just budgetary constraints and the fact that there's just too much good wine out there I'd like to buy.
Thanks for the comments, Michael. Re "value" Chablis, I would point you to the negociant level 2017 Fevre Champs Royaux. I prefer the 2017 Domaine bottling that I tasted here, but the 2017 Champs Royaux is very good IMHO and at $16.97 (Total Wine & Costco) is a very good value also. I bought six bottles a couple of months back. (Perhaps even Nathan could agree that this is "inexpensive", but then again maybe not). Cheers.

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#38 Post by Jim Stewart » July 11th, 2019, 10:02 am

Howard Cooper wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 9:13 am
Jim Stewart wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 9:43 pm
Nathan Smyth wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:54 pm

You just threw $50 [+ sales tax] at two wines, neither of which you seem crazy about.

In many states, with sales tax [plus whatever time & effort went into getting to the retailer & back home again, such as burning gasoline at $3 per gallon], you'd have easily invested $60 in this tasting.

In retrospect, would you still say that this endeavor qualifies as "Inexpensive"?

[It's not a trick question - I'm honestly curious whether throwing sixty bucks at meh/mediocre wines makes the hair on the back of your neck start standing up at attention. FTR, I just did the same thing last week - at the exactly the same price points - and I wasn't thrilled with the results.]

EDIT: We've been using this method for more than a year now - I'll go to the store, and get two [or three or four] wines from the same category [or similar wines which scratch more-or-less the same itch], and we'll make small pours of each wine, and study them together for about a week, and then we'll only place a large order for the wines which stand up best under the strain of the extended oxidative analysis.

But we're on a very rare 2-week losing streak at the moment.
Puzzling comments, but I'll respond. The term "inexpensive" was used relatively and I actually found the Fevre "delicious and recommmended" not meh/mediocre. Cheers.
Jim, I assume that you could afford the wines you bought. Many if not most of us like to try wines that are new to us, sometimes we like them, sometimes we don't. I don't think you should have to be called to account to how you spend your money or apologize for buying $25 wines to try. If someone cannot afford these wines, they should not buy them, but how you spend your money is up to you, not up to me or anyone else on the board. Not only was the post that you responded to offensive, but it also has an unnecessary chilling effect on board participation. I learn from posts about wines people like and wines people do not like. I would hate for people to be reluctant to post about wines on this board because some jealous person doesn't like how they spend their money. Thank you for your posts.
Cheers, Howard !

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Re: TN: Taste-Off: Two Inexpensive Chablis

#39 Post by Brad England » July 11th, 2019, 11:14 am

William Kelley wrote:
July 10th, 2019, 6:13 am
Brad England wrote:
July 9th, 2019, 6:11 pm


William. What's your macro view of 2017 white Burgundy. All the anecdotal points of view I'm hearing are that it's as good in it's own way as 2014. Your thoughts?
That's a big question, but in brief, it's a lovely white Burgundy vintage. It's lower in acidity and generally more floral and expressive than 2014, but still nicely succulent, with lots of charm but tension, too. And the wines have become tighter-knit with élevage - something that was especially noticeable at the best Chablis producers I visited, and also chez Guffens-Heynen in the Mâconnais, but also to some extent in the Côte d'Or. It's quite consistently good from the Mâconnais up to Chablis (with a special shout out, while I think of it, for Vincent Dureuil-Janthial's Rully whites, which are the best I've ever tasted from him). John Gilman compared 2017 whites to 1992, and the more I think about it, the more that makes sense as the best analogy out there. So the style of 2017 is really quite different from the style of 2014, but it is a very high quality vintage.

I have purchased and am purchasing quite broadly for my own cellar: in no particular order, I've bought Hubert Lamy, Niellon, Guffens-Heynen, Dureuil-Janthial, J Carillon, a bit of Rapet, Dauvissat, Raveneau, Moreau-Naudet, Sauzet, Marc Colin and will be buying Ramonet, as well as a bit of Coche and Lafon since it's my daughter's birth year.
Thanks for the reply, appreciate it.
CT=BradE

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