How we taste wine: the contribution of aroma (does the glass really matter)

Interesting news article summarizing a recent study of the physiology of taste:

Of course, you can smell foods by holding them up to your face and huffing. But that’s not quite the same as taking in all the flavors of a food. “When we have food or drink in our mouths, [the flavor] has to be going from the back of the mouth up and into the noise – going backwards,” says Dr. Gordon Shepherd, a neuroscientist at Yale University.

By implication, this would seem to support what I’ve always believed: that the glass, apart from influencing the aroma of a wine before it gets into your mouth, doesn’t have any impact on the actual taste of a wine.

He’s partly right.

How about the aroma being properly placed into the nose as one quaffs - “going forwards,” as he might say?

Mr. Rath have you ever tasted with Georg Reidel at one of his tastings?

No, I haven’t. I find the Riedel glassware to be beautifully crafted, and use some of them at home. But I’m not a believer that the glass shape has an impact on how a wine tastes. How it smells before you put it in your mouth? Yes, but not after.

So, you could drink wine through a straw and it would taste the same?

That would be well and fine, and did not mean that in confrontational fashion. I guess I diverge in thinking that “taste” is so intricately intertwined with aroma that the two happen together (backwards and forwards, as the author may term it,) and aroma can help to establish the taste of a wine before it is on my tongue.

If this taste thing “goes backwards,” as the author stated, then why wouldn’t he think it could also proceed by “going forward” as we smell a wine or bring it to our lips?

LOL, I don’t think anyone (including me) would make that contention. Really, I just linked to the article, which I find interesting - and which does lend support to my belief that the majority of taste (even from aroma) comes from the wine once it’s in your mouth, and very little from what you smell before taking a sip. The nose of a wine (and the physical sensation of the glass in your hand and against your lips) is clearly part of the tasting experience, but is it enough to justify some of the theories on wine glass shape/size? For me, the answer is no. I subscribe to the notion that you should pick the glass whose shape appeals to your eye and hand, but not because it will make any kind of significant contribution to the ultimate taste of the wine.

I remember the first time I tasted the same wine in two different glasses. One an old style ‘paris goblet’ and the other a larger glass with a bowl that curved in at the rim - nothing as fancy as Riedel or the others.

It was a really striking difference in taste, massively more interesting in the larger glass than the paris goblet (which really ARE an abomination to drink anything but the most rustic / rough wines from).

I suppose if you want to exclude the glass from the equation, hold your nose as you take the wine in, put the wine glass back down and only then think about the taste. Not my idea of fun, but compare that to drinking as normal and I reckon the difference in taste will be great.

I think here one needs to keep the idea of aroma and flavor somewhat separate. Aroma is what you smell either orthonasally (forward smell, through the nostrils) or retronasally (backwards, up through the back of the throat). This all takes place at the olfactory epithelium in the nose.

Flavor, on the other hand, will be the integration of the taste, the aroma, and other environmental factors.

You can surely evaluate the aroma of wine both by sticking your nose in a glass or by moving the volatile compounds that are volatilized in the oral cavity up past the olfactory epithelium in the nose (that’s what all the chewing and swishing is all about).

How big is the effect of glass shape on aroma? Small, if you can’t see the glass (and figuring out how to get someone to assess the aroma of a wine within a glass without seeing or touching the glass is not easy). A lot of the glass shape, I believe and research bears out (I guess the caveat being that I did the research) affects expectation and enjoyment more than actual aroma (or flavor), though there are small changes.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/227823617_The_effect_of_glass_shape_on_the_concentration_of_polyphenolic_compounds_and_perception_of_Merlot_wine

Greg, thanks for chiming in. The conclusions of the work I linked seem to be that much of the contribution of aroma to taste is not even from chewing/swishing, but from the compounds carried back into the nasal passages through exhaling a breath after chewing and swallowing. That interpretation is a new one to me, and I found it an interesting new way to look at things.

I love this topic!

Thank you, Greg.

Just as an idiosyncratic note: I eschew chewing wine. I think it raises the perception of alcohol (heat) without adding much in the way of flavor.

Amazing how we all share this hobby but vary like we do. [cheers.gif]

For glasses, I do like the different shapes and wish there was a good way to test myself blind, but even the lip feel of different glasses gives to many physical cues to eliminate them from a blind test. I think I can tell the differences, so will stay with my Riedels, etc.

As my bottom line - I want a broader bowl and narrower chimney. When I was young, large brandy snifters were my stemware of choice!

I will hold fast to my opinion about “tasting forward” as well as “backward.” The same volatiles that go ‘back up’ the nose can also ‘go forward’ through the nose and start to establish flavor on the palate, IMO.

Okay kids, your Uncle Tran took it upon himself to objectively settle this argument in the name of preserving virtual friendship and camaraderie. Behold my taste test with the following stemware. In order: Glencairn whisky nosing/tasting glass; standard industry tasting/nosing sampling glass; standard generic wine glass; and Riedel Inniskillin Vinium icewine glass.
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My super-scientific 100% accurate no-fail test consisted of tasting our test wine – the Lornano 1999 Vin Santo del Chianti – from all four glasses in ascending order of height without nosing the wine at all. Straight from the glass direct to my lips. The second portion of the test consisted of nosing the glasses. The third and final portion of the test consisted of both nosing and tasting the wine from the glass like a good Wine Berserker. On we go:

TRIAL 1 – TASTE ONLY:

Glencairn: The wine tastes of honey and raisins. Super sweet up front. Toffee now rolls along. Threatening to become very cloying. Saved by apricots and a hint of lemony acidity appear at the very end of the finish.

Tasting glass: The wine tastes of honey and raisins. However, the sweetness is much more mellow and takes its time as the toffee comes in. Then the apricots and lemons appear. Much more balanced in flavor as they literally roll right along into each other. Came awfully and surprisingly close to the Icewine glass in terms of overall enjoyability of taste.

Wine glass: Lemon flavor and acidity hits immediately up front, surprising me a little after the above. So much so, in fact, that the wine is actually more refreshing, not a description one would normally think of with Vin Santo. By far the least cloying of all four glasses. The honey and apricots then roll in. Toffee comes in at the finish but is the least strongest out of this glass, more like a spice than a predominant flavor. Perfect glass for those who think sweet wines are in fact way too sweet.

Icewine glass: The wine tastes of honey and raisins. Sweetness is stronger than the tasting glass but weaker than the Glencairn putting it in just the right spot. Lemon acidity and toffee then hit followed by strong apricot flavor. The toffee flavor then comes roaring back strongly as does the apricot and both equally dominate the finish, riding the honey sweetness. Very well balanced, just barely beating the tasting glass.

TRIAL 2 – NOSE ONLY:

Glencairn: Nothing but burnt sugar toffee on the nose. So much so you’d have no idea you were going to be hit by the fruit flavors when tasting. Mellows out to buckwheat honey aromas after repeated whiffs. Still, zero fruit on the nose.

Tasting glass: Nice even balance between caramel aromas and apricot aromas. Does a better job of carrying aromas than you would think for an el cheapo glass.

Wine glass: Absolutely zero aromas, even when I inhale like a coke fiend. Seriously. I cannot get any nose out of this though there is a slight beat of alcohol vapor coming off. If not for that, I would think I’m sniffing water. The Glencairn may have given a one-dimensional aroma, but at least there was actually an aroma. Shocking at just how much aroma is actually lost.

Icewine glass: Skips the toffee and goes right for the buckwheat honey aroma. You also get a touch of heat and the faintest aroma of apricots but only if you try really hard. Somewhat surprising given the angular diamond shape that I love, which in theory should allow air into the glass to carry the aromas upward and then focus them at the tapered top. Yet it’s true, the cheap nosing glass actually gives off a much nicer and more balanced if less concentrated nose.

TRIAL 3 – NOSE AND TASTE:

Well score one for science – my notes are exactly the same as trial one for taste and trial 2 for nose. The wines taste exactly the same from each glass, whether I nose them or not. The consistency definitely proves that the aromas do not influence the literal taste of the wine as much as we think…

CONCLUSIONS:

… but they do significantly alter the experience and enjoyment of tasting wine. That makes a big difference. Winemaker Rob Power of Niagara’s Creekside Estates once told me that wine critics are obsessed only with a wine’s aroma but winemakers are obsessed with a wine’s texture because they’re already confident it tastes and smells great. The point being that they are focused on making the most enjoyable wine they can in all aspects. This trial is definite proof of that.

True, aromas don’t influence flavor as much as we might think but they do have an important influence on the wine as a whole. I salivated immediately in what was practically a Pavlovian reaction even in Trial 2 when I just nosed the glasses without tasting. The foreplay definitely made Trial 3 a lot more fun than Trial 1. Plus, the trace amounts of heat tickled the nostrils in a pleasant manner only adding to the fun.

Also, in regards to the glasses, they all had different effects on the aromas and flavors but the results were quite different. When it came to aromas, the glasses either focused or completely omitted some aromas which to me would cause a serious affect on the overall enjoyment. For this reason alone, I could never ever go back to generic wine glasses as the lack of nose has too much effect on the overall experience of the wine.

When it came to taste, however, the significance was that they altered when I experienced the various components of the wine resulting sometimes in completely different experiences with the same wine. This was especially noticeable in the taste from the generic wine glass. All of them allowed me to experience the exact same four tasting components I could discern – apricots, lemon, honey, toffee and raisins – but in varying degrees and concentrations at different moments.

Based on this test, I must agree with the article that aroma does not in fact influence the taste of wine itself as much as we would like to think but it certainly does influence the enjoyment of wine as a whole experience. I feel I cannot properly savor a wine without being able to have at least some appreciation for even just a portion of its aromas as well to whet my appetite for the wine. Therefore, a set of glasses that create a nose that you enjoy for your own wines is an absolute must.

I have been to two such tastings. There is a subtle, but noticeable difference.

I’ve long valued wineglasses mainly for the aromatics. Tasting at wineries in Burgundy and Alsace…the ones who provide better glasses mostly allow better concentration on aromatics.

Of course, aromatics is part of the “taste” from any glass…though not likely from a straw. It’s difficult to put wine onto your buds from a glass without some contribution of aromatics.

That’s how I’ve always thought of things.

But…I’ve also thought…as Alan seemingly has…that the glass, per se, doesn’t affect the “taste” that much, at least, I’ve never perceived a corrolation between quality (or price) and taste vs. aromatics, where I do think they matter.

FWIW.

I think the article is basically correct, but don’t forget that the shape of the glass has a lot to do with how the wine is delivered into your mouth and throat, which may have a lot to do with how the aromatics (and limited taste sensations) play out. a glass that delivers a small amount of wine into the very front of your mouth through a nearly closed mouth will give you something different from a larger glass that delivers wine to more of your mouth through wider lip opening, carrying some aromatics with it…

John - the shape of the glass has pretty much nothing to do with the way the wine is delivered to your mouth. Take any number of glasses and partly fill them with water. Hold them over the sink and pour the water out. It goes in one direction - down.

And even if it made a difference, do you just gulp the wine down? Or do you let it linger in your mouth for a few seconds to taste it? All that is marketing myth that Reidel has now dropped.

By implication, this would seem to support what I’ve always believed: that the glass, apart from influencing the aroma of a wine before it gets into your mouth, doesn’t have any impact on the actual taste of a wine.

This is not by implication, it is simply correct. But let’s define “taste”.

Look at the way we obtain and process taste and aroma information.

Dogs and other animals have long nasal passages. Within those passages are many more receptor cells than humans have in our noses. The passages warm the air, humidify it, and pick up additional information from the volatile compounds the animal is sniffing.

From rodents to primates to humans, there is a decline in the number of functional olfactory receptor genes as vision became our dominant source of information. Mice and rats have about three times as many as humans do. But when they do experiments, over 80% of the olfactory system in an animal can be removed with no apparent decline in sensitivity. So apparently a lot of it is redundant, or more likely, we just don’t know what’s really happening because we can’t talk to rats.

Interestingly, humans do very well in picking up scents, often as well as dogs and rodents for some compounds. So what is happening?

From the nose, the information goes to the olfactory bulb, which in most animals is much larger in proportion to the rest of the brain than it is in humans, and is towards the front of the brain. Information goes to the olfactory bulb and from there to other regions of the brain.

And that’s it. They get a lot of information in. By smell, a rat can distinguish a worm that’s been dead for several days from one that’s been dead only a few days. A bloodhound can find faint traces of a person who’s passed by a few days earlier.

Taste isn’t a big concern to a dog or a rat. A dog doesn’t bother much with what it’s eating – it just swallows whole chunks of food. Consequently they have a fraction of the taste buds that humans do.

But far more important is the human brain. We do take in smells through our noses like dogs do – that’s called orthonasal perception. And wine people who don’t know much more than that will claim that taste is mostly smell so the aroma of a wine is the most important aspect of it to them. Weird way to enjoy wine – pretending you’re a dog.

In fact, most of what we pick up does NOT come from orthonasal perception, it comes from retronasal perception. To some degree, our mouths act like the nasal passage of a dog – that’s where food and drink are warmed and humidified and where additional information is picked up. The “smell” goes to our nose from our throat and we perceive it as coming from within ourselves, like we tastes of sweetness or sourness and our brains combine the smell with the taste and we call it “flavor”. In other words, whether the information comes from our tongue or from our retronasal passage doesn’t matter – our brain process it as if it’s all part of a piece.

Some of the information does in fact go to our olfactory bulb just like it does with any other animal. But our olfactory bulb is lower and deeper in our brains, not towards the front. From the olfactory bulb the information goes to other parts of the brain, including the frontal lobe, which surpasses that of any other animal, connecting to memories, motivation, judgment, and even emotion from the limbic system. More interestingly, some of the neurons simply bypass the olfactory bulb altogether and go directly to the cortex, some directly to our emotional centers.

So flavor must have been an important part of our lives, or we wouldn’t have developed such direct connections. Moreover, as the different parts of our brains light up, they create unique patterns. Our brains have one pattern for a cherry, another for shrimp - odor images as it were. Those patterns are exactly like the patterns created by information processed by sight. In other words, we can recognize particular flavors just like we can recognize a friend across a football field. That is why people who sometimes say that blind tasting is a parlor trick don’t know what they’re talking about – it’s simply pattern recognition, something the human brain is particularly good at.

And interestingly, our ability to speak adds another dimension. It’s hard cognitive work to describe exactly what it is we are experiencing - it’s what we are uniquely adapted to.

Now as to whether a wine tastes the same through a straw or from a glass – do an experiment. Take some soda or juice and pour it into a glass. Drink some and then taste some through a straw. Does it taste different? Humans are remarkably good at picking up differences – it’s pattern recognition remember. If the Coke tasted different depending on the delivery mechanism, Coke would not be pleased. Their whole point is to make something that tastes the same all the time. Of course, Reidel, with their BS machine in overdrive, has created a special glass for Coke.

So no, the glass doesn’t matter in the least insofar as delivering the information to your receptors. People should stop trying to claim that it does.

However, in one respect, and it’s the only one, Reidel has a point. Humans seem to enjoy their food far more than any other animal. That’s because of the incredible connections between the different parts of our brain. Food has an emotional component for humans that it seems to lack for other creatures, at least insofar as science can determine. And it’s that last component – the emotional component, that gives Reidel some claim. It’s impossible for humans to separate emotion from eating and from flavor. Our nervous system is hard-wired to connect the two. So if glass A makes something seem better to you than glass B, OK.

(Sorry for the long post.)

So Greg, do you drink your wine out of a shot glass? Do you own more than one kind of wine glass?

I agree with most everything you’ve said, except that wine clearly tastes different out of diffent types of glasses. (It clearly smells different as well, but that’s basically imseparable from how it tastes)

There are two types of people: those who say stemware doesn’t matter and those who know how to taste wine. :wink:

John,
Greg pretty much said it all, in particular the point about how liquid emerges from a glass regardless of its shape below the rim. If you haven’t seen this thread, here’s a link to one of my posts that illustrates how unimportant glass shape is. It’s a lot like the dam holding back a lake; the shape of the lake, the depth of the water, the contour of the dam below the rim - none of that matters as the water is pouring over the lip of the dam.

FIFY [cheers.gif]

Well John, I do have many types of glasses and many of the Reidel glasses, in part because I’ve picked them up along the way and in part because I wanted to see for myself if the different glass mattered. And I’ve talked to Max Reidel about it as well. These days I just take whatever glass is in front, so it usually ends up being the same one until I take a bunch of them out for some reason and they get re-ordered.

Regarding taste - if you throw the wine back, like you would from a shot glass, it goes to the back of your throat, but how big your mouth cavity is, how your head is angled, and the velocity of the throw all matter as well. So as far as a particular glass “delivering” wine to a particular part of your mouth, that’s simply nonsense. As far as a glass affecting taste once the wine is in your mouth, that’s simply nonsense too, unless you left a lot of soap on the glass after washing it. As far as your emotional and even sensory reaction, that’s specific to you. But it’s an overlay added by your brain, it’s not sensory information conveyed to your brain. And as I explained, maybe not clearly enough, “taste” comes from receptors on our tongues and in our mouths, “smell” comes from airborne molecules we pick up either with our noses externally or internally through our internal nasal passages, and when the latter combines with taste, we we perceive it as “flavor”. I can’t make it any simpler.

As far as knowing how to taste, I never claimed to be the brightest light around, and perhaps don’t know how to taste wine even after having spent years in the business tasting thousands of wines and doing weekly blind tastings for 20 years, so I look forward to being enlightened.