if not American oak, then what...

So last night I opened a bottle of the Cabot/Tercero joint project Le Deux Comte, a blend of roughly 3/4 syrah, 1/4 grenache and a dollop of viognier. Poured into a decanter and let sit for an hour or so before pouring myself a glass, and upon swirling I was literally OVERWHELMED by aromas of coconut and suntan oil, which I’ve always known to be associated with American oak. This trait definitely showed on the palate as well, but was not as dominant, as there were some dark berry and pepper flavors lurking. After another hour or so I got on the Cabot website to see that this wine was aged only in older French barrels, at which point I was just plain confused.

I will revisit tonight and see if anything has changed, but at this point I’m wondering if this was in some way a flawed bottle, as the CT notes do not say anything remotely close to what I experienced??

I did not use any American oak on my portion of it - and I’m pretty sure John did not either - but will let him reply directly about that.

Your descriptors do not echo the bottles that I’ve had and poured in the tasting room - but I would not say it was a flawed bottle - just ‘different’.

Let us know how it is tonight please

Cheers!

Same thing happened to me…at a blind tasting I blurted “way too much American oak” my friends response…“this see’s no American oak”…WTF??? Can’t remember the wine but I to went to their the website and found around 95%was aged in french oak the rest aged in a minuscule of American…but it was so overpowering it couldn’t be just that small amount of time aged in the American oak causing it…I am still scratching my head

In addition oak origins, lactones (compounds that can give the coconut aromas) can be derived in fermentation and carbonic maceration derived glutamic and succinic acids (according to Wine Science by RS Jackson).

I can usually spot American oak, but more because of the bitterness that it seems to apply, at least for my taste buds.

I’m in that camp with my limit experience with Spanish reds and Silver Oak.

French oak coupled with ripe fruit.

Not an American oak fan at all, but will say, Ridge somehow pulls it off. Not always, but enough to keep me happy. I struggle with Rioja using American oak.

Peyton,

Any more notes from tonight?

Folks, the fruit in this wine was NOT ripe. Have you had John’s syrahs?!?!? And the syrah that went into this blend on my end was my 09 Thompson Syrah - picked at about 24.5 brix and fermented 100% whole cluster.

I am not a fan of American oak at all - it may ‘have its place’, but, to me, it makes its presence known way too much, even when used in small amounts . . .

Cheers.

Larry,
Just drank a glass, and… the transformation that has taken place is a nice reminder of how this thing that we enjoy called wine can be at times quite temperamental.

What I am now drinking is pretty much exactly what I expect when I open a bottle of Cabot syrah (I’ve not had the pleasure of drinking any of your solo efforts). Dark berries, pepper, some floral tones and a touch of meatiness… not a trace of the suntan lotion, and I’m looking for it. Palate follows suit with barely ripe blackberry, black cherry, pepper, a nice vein of salinity running through the finish.

This is a really enjoyable drink… glad I didn’t give up on it and tell my wife that it was all hers

Silver Oak could do with a little bitterness.

It’s probably more to do with the level and type of toasting rather than the type of wood.

As far as American oak goes, it does have its place. It works better than French Oak with my mourvedre for example but I don’t like its effect on Syrah or my white wine. I’m sure there are other examples where American oak barrels, carefully chosen, can make a better wine than a French oak one.

Great to hear! My contribution was a barrel of 100% whole cluster syrah from the Thompson Vineyard just south of Los Alamos and a barrel of my 2009 Grenache from the Camp 4 Vineyard in eastern Santa Ynez. The syrah complemented the two barrels of Kimberly’s that John contributed nicely, and the grenache was added to give an aromatic ‘lift’ and to ‘soften’ and add another layer to the earthy, smoky quality that both syrahs possessed.

I’m psyched to still have a number of cases left of this to continue to sell - and to lay down to see how it develops. It’s already transformed nicely but I still consider this a pretty young wine with a long life ahead of it.

Cheers!

Wait 20 years or so on the rioja

Very interesting.

I always thought the Oaky Lactones were a singing group from Bakersfield.
Seriously folks, more study of lactones in oak needs to be done.

Lactones diminish in American oak with seasoning whereas they increase in French oak with seasoning. There is also variation from stave to stave.

Oh, there’s plenty of bitterness.

Isn’t that the old saying?: “Bitter all the way to the bank”

10 years will do just fine. 2004 Bosconia Reserva I opened a few days ago carries all that American oak as smooth as Fred Astaire…

I think that very few people can tell “American” oak from “French” oak. Trees are much like grape vines - they reflect their genetics, but also their places of origin and most of all their treatment, which can trump the rest. It’s like Merlot and Cab Sauvignon, which may be obvious when you have a cheesy, cheap Merlot vs a great cab, but which fade when you have different versions of those grapes.

We associate certain flavors and qualities with American oak, but I think that’s based on the treatment of the barrels in wines we are familiar with. Without doing a lot of tasting from particular producers of specific barrels, it’s pretty hard to make broad claims.

The trees in Tokaj are related to those in Alliers. So is that wood French or Hungarian when a Rioja producer puts his wine into barrels made from the Hungarian forest? It’s not often possible to get the same wine matured in different barrels, but when you get a chance, it’s a humbling experience.