Let me get this out of the way first: This thread is not intended to bash the stylistic differences between some California wines and European wines. Each person has their own palate and their own preferences. So please let’s not turn this into another Caymus 40th sucks thread.
I generally do not drink much California wine. My parents drink a lot of wine that I do not enjoy (think Caymus, Shafer HSS, Mer Soleil), and thus I have spent the majority of my (relatively young) wine drinking experience seeking out and drinking more terroir driven european wines. My California experiences have been brief, but pleasant (Wind Gap, Arnot Roberts, old Heitz, etc).
After that long winded intro, lets get to the point. I went to a tasting this weekend which included 15 or so IPOB chards and pinots from: Failla, Sandhi, Hirsch, Wenzlau. I must admit, I thought the wines as a whole were really delcious. Really precise, transparent, and terrior driven. No overextraction, ridiculous oak, or 15.5% bombs in sight. I thought to myself, “Hey, I definitely wouldn’t mind stocking up on some of these”.
And then I saw the prices… I continue to be amazed at the just how expensive California wines as a whole are. I really enjoyed the wines but I just cannot bring myself to spend the same price on an entry level CA pinot that I could on a very decent 1er cru burg. I admit that I do not understand the intricacies and financial numbers of the wine business, but I cannot fathom why I can more readily find French wines (which have to be imported across the Atlantic Ocean) of similar quality for half the price of some of the CA counterparts. Now I know people will retort with staggering increases in prices across many of the french appellations. But values do exist. Don’t even get me started on Spain, Germany, or Italy which can be veritable treasure troves of “inexpensive” wines.
I guess, my question is: Do you think CA wines are comparitavely expensive? Can you get the same level of quality in a $50 or $100 dollar of bottle compared to a similarly priced European wine? I’m sure this will cause a lot of debate, but hey, that’s the point.
California can be a weird place, especially from an economic standpoint. I think the high cost of living is often baked into the price of most California wines.
I feel like I see a lot of these posts in in the abstract, but would love to see some concrete examples. I haven’t drank enough old world wines to argue one way or the other, but I’ve thoroughly enjoyed the wines below and would love to track down some old world comparisons that are purportedly cheaper and better.
Rivers Marie Sonoma Coast Pinot Noir - $25
Littorai Les Larmes Anderson Valley - $50
Kutch Sonoma Coast - $39
Bedrock North Coast Syrah - $20
Carlisle Monte Rosso Zinfandel - $40
The wines you listed are all in all great New world wines. They are also very well known wines with a bit higher price tags. There hopefully will be some replies back to your post with some wines that are comparative in price to the old world wines. I can think of Rivers-Marie as delivering a kick ass pinot for $25. Or Tensley knocking your socks off for $28-32 for an awesome syrah. I think it is easy to find the good $100 bottle of pinot in America but finding a quality $20-30 pinot just takes more searching because usually those producers may only make a few hundred cases and are not readily available in the market as opposed to some burgundy producers produce a quality wine by the 10’s of thousands of cases…easily accessible stuff. Same goes for Bordeaux vs. napa cabs. Lynch bages makes a killer wine and also a lot of it. Just look on CT, thousands of people have 10’s of thousdands of their wine. Then look at a wine from Greer, Macdonald, or VHR. Similar in terms of quality but they only produce several hundred cases all together. Harder to find but same quality and price as a french wine if your taastes align that way.
Sean, when you say “1er Cru Burgundy” what are some examples? If I compare to 1er Savigny, Mercurey, St. Aubin, Beaune, etc. I can sort of make your argument work. If I compare to Cote de Nuits Reds and Chassagne/Puligny/Meursault, no chance.
There is no doubt that some prices are higher than their ‘old world’ counterparts and this has been brought forth in other threads with potential reasons given.
What gets me is that you are talking about ‘dissing’ CA as a whole based on a handful of IPOB wines that are being put forth as somewhat ‘poster children’ for a ‘more balanced’ style of wines and are therefore pricing their wines accordingly. Yep, there are many in that group that produce more reasonably priced offerings, but many others are quite expensive.
Let’s break it down a bit. Instead of searching out some of the ‘hip and new’, check out Au Bon Climat’s offerings - their entry level chards and pinots are QUITE reasonable. Or Calera . … or Mt. Eden . . . or Ojai - all members of IPOB but making more ‘under the radar’ wines.
And of course there are PLENTY of others not in that group making stellar wines are more than reasonable prices. Siduri’s appellation wines are great values at under $30, though potentially riper than you’d like. But there are others - and I’m hopeful others will chime in with their examples . . .
Please let me know where all this “10’s of thousands of cases of their wine” from Bugundy are. California is not the place to go in search of value. If the style is right the price is wrong, if the price is right the style is wrong. There are a few producers that are the exception to this rule, but most fall squarely in the middle of it. Even more so here in Virginia.
Let me sum up: You found something you really like but don’t want to pay the price to drink them. Welcome to our world.
On a similar journey I too find wines like Littorai Savoy a joy to drink even with their 13% abvs, but at $70+ to drink them I am not so enthused to go full throttle into them. Luckily there is options in the moderately priced spectrum that seem to float one of my many boats and float they do for $30-$49. Even I realize where that minimum lies with my stuff. $30
Have fun with it all and stop trying to replace one thing with another.
I am going to have a bit of fun myself at NY IPOB tonight.
California is a huge place and some place are more expensive than others. You have land in Napa for many years, like BV, Beringer, etc., and you can put out your wine at various price points, some not too bad at all. You show up a few years ago having made millions elsewhere and you want to buy in because you like the “lifestyle”, you have to pay a lot for the land and for the consultants and for the vineyard management and your cost basis is a lot higher.
Outside of Napa, if you’re making really small production wine from vineyards in an area that’s hard to get to, and the grapes are in demand, and you have no other income, you have to build your costs and a decent profit into the wine. And ultimately the market will decide. So if two or three people on this board don’t want to pay the prices, there are probably a few dozen others who will.
And ultimately that’s the driver of prices. People will pay for Bordeaux, so the prices are high. Way beyond cost. People won’t pay as much for wine from the Languedoc, so the prices are lower. You don’t go into that region with the expectation that you’ll sell your wine for $100 a bottle, so you don’t build a model that requires expensive consultants, new barrels, etc.
As far as Burgundy goes - how often do those estates and vineyards change hands? If a place has been family-owned for generations, it is like the old producers in Napa. But even there, the market dictates the price. People buy those wines based on labels. The thing to do there is to line up a bunch of Burgundies and taste them blind, ranking them from your favorite to least favorite. You want to know what happens? Same thing that always happens with Burgundy. People make excuses for the “better” ones not being better.
And finally, in places like Spain and France, there are still co-ops that have been around for a while. They put out a lot of wine and with a little assistance, they can improve their wine w/out adding much to the cost. Most of the producers in CA are much younger.
1er Cru Burgs are nowhere near entry level either. You can easily find good Bourgogne in the $20-25 range. For my taste in CA, entry level stuff from ABC and Navarro compares pretty well to that (and slightly cheaper). The problem for me is if I want Burgundy, those wines aren’t it.
Yes I agree, as far as burgundy goes you would have to stick to some of the “lesser known” appellations. But I think the quality to price ration is there. A couple that I can think of off the top of my head are Lafouges 1er Cru Auxey Durresses which are kick ass bottles of wine that can be had for around $30. PYCM is another example. Sure, you’ll have to spend closer to $60 for a 1er Cru St. Aubin, but i think they way out perform Cali chards at the same price point.
But burgundy was just an off hand example. Loire Valley, both white and red, old school spanish rioja, traditional sytled nebbilolo, literally any riesling from Germany, i can keep going…
If you want Burgundy, purchase Burgundy. You will NOT find Burgundy in this country at any price. Period. Not trying to be ‘snippy’ but that’s my opinion. I would say the same if you said you ‘wanted Chablis’ or ‘wanted Northern Rhone’ . . .
It’s not as much about the dollar amount but a quality comparison at X price point, whatever X may be. And no, I think the conversation goes beyond pinot and chardonnay, I was just using those as examples because thats what I had tasted this weekend.
I’d say dig a bit deeper. For entry level stuff, I’d be hard pressed to find a better value than Copain’s Tous Ensemble wines. Lioco’s Sonoma County Chardonnay is another amazing value.
A Tribute to Grace SB Highlands Grenache at $45- I’ve not tasted a Southern Rhone example at $45 that moved me like that wine. Carlisle stuff is moderately priced. Look at the entire line from Broc Cellars. Ridge wines are insane values considering their aging curve, Mount Eden too.
I totally agree, and sticker shock seems to not be a problem with most people drinking upper tier California wines. I see these Rhone styled blends from Paso Robles (for example) selling for $60-$80 a bottle and I wonder who the hell buys these? I could list a hord of real Rhone old vine blends that retail for $20-$30 a bottle that I like (prefer actually) over the new world blends.
Ditto for the Petite Chateaux that regularly come in under $30, hard for California to come even close to that for the same quality.
Pinot Noir is a bit of a different story, and even though the upper tier Pinots are reaching scary price levels, there are still $20-$30 bargains out there if you do your homework, and I can’t say that about Burgundy.
I’m an ol’ Francophile from way back anyways, so I have always preferred a little Bordeaux or Rhone blend over just about anything else out there anyways. I just like lower alcohol wines.