3x agreed. There are some AWFUL 2011s from some really good producers that have similar flavors to 2004. But there also are some good 2011s as well. But the lows are so low. Like Kevin said, why not just buy 07/08?
I think painting a broad brush that the people who don’t like 11 is because they like ripe chocolate and oak is ridiculous. I just don’t like the taste of green and chemicals in my wine.
My humble suggestion would be to try before you buy.
I had bought a couple of cases of 2011s on pre-arrival based upon producer. I heard rumors of gms and stopped buying pre-arrivals. I cracked a couple of the less expensive ones upon arrival and two tasted green (like 2004 lite) and two others were under ripe, edgy and astringent. I won’t name names. Buying and trying to swallow the 2004s was just such a bad experience I just couldn’t risk it.
I recently opened a 2011 Bertheau Chambolle Charmes 1er and it was quite good. I’m looking forward to the rest. I wouldn’t buy another 2011 unless I tasted it first. Even then, I’m with Charlie and Kevin, buy another vintage. This is the same conclusion I reached with 2000, 2004, 2013 and on the other end 2003. I actually have had a lot of very good 2007s, but I went long in Volnay. Then there’s 2006 in the north, Chambolle…
The more I taste, the more important vintage in Burgundy has become for me. Part of that is because they are so relatively expensive. That’s reality. Value is always a factor for me.
I did buy Pousse Volnay Clos des 60 Ouvrees in 2010, but I’m planning to give them a long rest.
Agree with this. I think what Charlie noted in his bottle is more about the vintage than the particular producer/wine. FWIW, I’ve found recent Pousse wines (say, 2009 and later) to be more approachable than the previous incarnations, but also to be riper and more fleshy on average than other comparable producers. The 2010 version of the 60 Ouvrees, for example, was very rich and lush, really “too much” for my tastes. I actually preferred the “regular” Caillerets.
I did try the 2011 60 Ouvrees back in 2014, and (for my tastes) found it a bit ripe, sweet, slightly soft. Easy to drink right now, but not a particularly interesting or complex wine for the long term.
This is the problem, you suggesting that the entire vintage is somehow contaminated. It isn’t, even based upon what is found in this thread.
And this gets further to my point. Apparently, 2013 and 2014 do not rise to the level of ripeness for you to enjoy them which, for me, makes your 2011 vintage assessment even further unreliable. You are, of course, free to chase, drink and post about trophies all that you like but that doesn’t vest in you the authority and experience necessary to make the broad vintage pronouncements that you do. They are not helpful, only misleading.
Charlie, as I mention above, that is where I challenge Kevin. One can’t do that accurately with any vintage anywhere, but here again Kevin calls the 2011s tainted. They aren’t, even from your experience. Further, let’s see where they are in 15 or 20 years. I expect that they will be widely enjoyed for precisely the reasons mentioned in Charlie’s OP. As I have said before, dismissing entire vintages easing buying decisions, but it does little to contribute to an interesting cellar. Among recent vintages, I like 2010 and 2014 a lot, but I would be disappointed not having 2011-2013, as well.
You seem to completely ignore what I posted. I agreed with you on the 11 vintage having moderate ripeness and density, and lower alcohol. My issue is the 04 like taint.
When I posted about the potential 04 like taint in the 11, I fully expected that I will get grilled. Since I am only an amateur, I don’t see the reason not to post my honest opinions. You certainly will not get that from the most critics as that will be detrimental to their careers, i.e. no domaine visits. Thus far, Antonio seems to recognize the potential issue in 11. Others recently pmed and emailed me about the 11 taints being more noticeable now.
Since then, I posted a number of positive notes on ‘11s. However, I still find a bit of taints quite often. I actually like an acid driven lean vintage like the 08. I just simply see no reason to buy 11 when you can buy the 07, 08, 13 and 14 which are more energetic, pure and precise for my palate.
I am pointing out that the style of ‘11, ‘13 and ’14 are similar. I actually like the 13 and 14 as well as the 07 and 08. I am just trying to have a discussion.
The first wine that I fell in love was 1976 Domaine Ponsot Morey-Saint-Denis Cuvee des Grives that I drank about thirty years ago. Burgundy still remains my passion. You may not like what I have to say but you should try to keep it civil.
P.S. My cellar is 90.3% French and I have only a few cases of St. Emilion.
To the contrary, I read and understand what you posted further up thread. Again, you suggested that 2011 red Burgundies are tainted, i.e., the vintage is contaminated or polluted. I take exception to that because they are aren’t and the vintage isn’t. If you were to write that some show under ripeness or green to your palate, as others have done, I would take no exception to that.
I have read your posts over the years, and it is abundantly clear that you enjoy ripe, concentrated wines. Your recent thread which included 2000 St.-Emilion trophies is a good example of that. Of course there is nothing wrong with that and one can certainly enjoy many styles of wine. However, I find those wines undrinkable and I believe many others whose tastes run to red Burgundy (and not just the trophies) would find the same. So, while it is not grounds to dismiss your red Burgundy assessments, it certainly is appropriate to take that into account, just as some attempt to “calibrate” their palates with those of certain critics. Also, I find more credibility in the notes of those who drink and post on Burgundy from the bottom to the top of the hierarchy, versus those who seemly do so only as to the trophies.
I agree that you are an amateur and, for that reason, I believe that you should be more cautious when pronouncing an entire vintage as tainted. And, it is not that I “don’t like” what you say; rather, I disagree with it and me saying so does not lack civility.
This is the 2012 Clos de le Bousse…
Very nice and a reinforcing bottle after I fell for the 2011 Pousse 60 Ouvrees. This bottle was more rich and dense, saturated. While both are transparent, this one shows a nice contrast between 2011 and 2012. Dense, dark red cherry fruit, pretty dark loamy soil. It has energy and lift. Quite nice really. I think I will seek more Pousse…
I also a d’Or it. Really does Pousse the envelope about how good Volnay can be–64s were legendary.
Not a wine that existed in the prior era, but Landanger’s Puligny Cailleret can be a stunningly good, tension filled bottle.
I’ve been through a case of the 2011 Pousse Chambolle AC. Zero complaints. Green? Not here mon Frere. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Not selling enough 2011s Mr. Steinley? I have drank enough bottles blind, double blind and otherwise with Kevin to know that: (1) he is definitely more sensitive to the “mean greenies” than most; and (2) that he calls it like he sees it. Just because Kevin is an “amateur” does not mean he has any less of a valid opinion than a paid professional. On the contrary, I trust his palate more than any other wine critic out there today not only because it is better but also because he stands no financial gain or loss from making such pronouncements. (See Allen Meadows thread).
Greg
Your question has nothing do to with my disagreement with Kevin’s pronouncement regarding the 2011 red Burgundy vintage, but if you must know I have sold plenty of 2011 red Burgundies and will continue to do so when the prices are right. I have read enough of Kevin’s notes to know the style of wine he prefers, so I am not surprised that he does not like the generally lean, low alcohol 2011 red Burgundies. However, the vintage is not “tainted” as Kevin has pronounced it, as reflected by comments regarding the wines in this thread alone. In your last sentence, you make my point which is that if there were some consequence to Kevin’s vintage pronouncements perhaps he would exercise more appropriate discretion when making them. Of course, you are free to trust Kevin’s palate and notes all that you wish, but that is likely not be the case for a true Burgundy collector/drinker who is interested in the variety among vintages and wines up and down the Burgundy hierarchy.
My question was a little in jest and mainly rhetorical: after all, merchants are better compensated when they find something good in every vintage. And, in most vintages, there is usually something good to be found! I have no idea what a “true” burgundy collector is or how to define a “false” burgundy collector but your impression of Kevin is dead wrong.
I never knew people could get so fussy over Pousse.
I like the various points of view!
I just ran the CT tasting report for 2016 and 2017 and the only time I tried/drank the “modern” Bordeaux was at the 00 St Emilion tasting. I have responded to you so many times that I like 2007, 2008, 2013 and 2014 red Burgundy, not that it will change your opinion.
I have always said that the taint sensitivity varies significantly. I also mentioned that the 11 is not as severely affected and posted a number of positive notes. Having said that, why buy the 11s, when you can buy the 07, 08, 13 or 14s? Once again, not that it will change your opinion.
Are you suggesting that one should only trust the merchants and the critics who can’t afford to jeopardize their careers?
I have no dog in this fight and no opinion about Pousse d’Or, but I’m curious, Kevin, when you first started drinking Burgundy. Sometimes these disagreements seem to be between people who have tasted over several decades and have seen how different vintages develop. Certainly, some lean vintages can surprise. I once bought a half case of '92 Monthelie-Duhairet Volnay-Champans that was lean and green and ugly for about a decade. I was kicking myself for going so long. Eventually, after 12 or 15 years, it blossomed into something wonderful. And the '93 Burgundies were generally very tough sledding for a long, long time.
One other point of interesting of my enjoyment of drinking red Burgundy wine is …to see ( and track ) the development of the general vintage character periodically - for example, at age 5, 10 and 15…on so on. I posted here many, many time that one of my favourite vintage year was 1994, specially for the high-end red from my favourite producers, specially DRC. 
John…I agree with you regarding vintage 1992.
Big mistake for my take on vintage 1993, luckily I kept all my 1993 Rousseau big wines…
My first love was Burgundy over thirty years ago. However, my reasonable exposure to young Burgundy only goes back to the 94 vintage. My issue is nothing to do with green/pyrazine/unripe, unless one refers to the 04 or 11 taint as “green”. LBT note is quite unique, just like TCA. I actually like Sauvignon Blanc and Loire red. If you go to most of the top European restaurants, you will find a lot of the 04 and 11 DRC, Rousseau, Roumier and etc. My European friends initially thought I was crazy but now they all avoid the 04s like the plague. In the best case scenario, LBT will transformed to smoke/ash note but why bother.