Northern Rhone Syrah styles

[Ramon_C]

@Kevin Harvey

@Jay Miller

No real experience with recent Jamet vintages as they’ve gotten too expensive but I always loved the olivey thing they do so well.

Jay,
That olive character is predominantly contributed by using the stems (especially in a cool year). I love it too.

And the bouquet, too. Mature Jamet CRs have some of the most appealing Northern Rhone aromatics out there.

[Todd_Laubach]

I had a 1999 Jamet at a restaurant in DC a number of years ago when it was still reasonably priced and everyone at the table was BLOWN away by the aromatics and taste of the wine. I would take that kind of syrah everyday if I could find it at a reasonable price. The olive character was mesmerizing.

[Pierre-Yves]

@David Culang

@Robert Dentice

Hervé Souhaut (The St Epine is amazing)

Robert, I have been repeatedly impressed by the Gamay and Saint Joseph, but have yet to taste the Saint Epine. If I remember correctly, they are made in a (semi)carbonic style. Is the Saint Epine more structured for aging?

As for aging, I loved the 2005 on release, and I have been following it since then, being less and less impress every year. Although it might be in a dull phase, I am not sure about the aging potential.
The 2010 on the contrary seemed not ready at all, and needs cellaring IMHO.

[David_Culang]

@Pierre-Yves

@David Culang

@Robert Dentice

Hervé Souhaut (The St Epine is amazing)

Robert, I have been repeatedly impressed by the Gamay and Saint Joseph, but have yet to taste the Saint Epine. If I remember correctly, they are made in a (semi)carbonic style. Is the Saint Epine more structured for aging?

As for aging, I loved the 2005 on release, and I have been following it since then, being less and less impress every year. Although it might be in a dull phase, I am not sure about the aging potential.
The 2010 on the contrary seemed not ready at all, and needs cellaring IMHO.

@Robert Dentice

@David Culang

@Robert Dentice

Hervé Souhaut (The St Epine is amazing)

Robert, I have been repeatedly impressed by the Gamay and Saint Joseph, but have yet to taste the Saint Epine. If I remember correctly, they are made in a (semi)carbonic style. Is the Saint Epine more structured for aging?

Some information here. Not entirely clear if the St Epine is carbonic. It is so good now I am not going to worry about aging but my guess is it will age.

Domaine Romaneaux-Destezet (Hervé Souhaut) | Jenny and Francois Selections

Thanks fellas, I’ll check it out.

[Dave_Grudzinski]

I love N. Rhones! I look for a savory, silky quality, with red fruits, some acid and, of course, the ethereal red fruit, bacon fat, and floral aromas.

I like Gonon, Champet, Burgaud, Delas, Jasmin & P. Gaillard. I’ve enjoyed some Guigal wines from the 8o’s. I’m not so oak sensitive, but I don’t see any overuse of oak in Gaillard’s wines. Recently had some '99 & '01 cote-roties from him and, with 10-15 years of bottle age, the wines seem more red fruit & acid driven. I’m not a fan of too much olive notes in wine.

I’ve enjoyed some Guigal La-La’s, Jamet and Chave Hermitage, but can’t afford these wines right now. I think Jaboulet La Chapelle is over priced & over rated.

I’ve tried many California syrah, but the only ones that come close to a N. Rhone style to me is Peay & Cabot. I don’t like the high alcohol, over extracted and unbalanced qualities in some Cali syrah. That’s my take!

[John_S]

I think the diversity in styles and palates here is quite interesting. While Kevin and others do not enjoy the La Las I have never been wowed by Rostaing nor Chapoutier. I am sure others quite like those producers. Yes, I have tried ones with age from great years but they simply don’t hit my sweet spot and never have consistently.

[DougS]

Can anyone else comment on how Rostaing’s style compares with the styles of other producers being discussed? I have very little experience with any of these wines (unfortunately – going to try to change that), so this is a very interesting discussion for me.

[John_Morris]

This is not in the Allemand/Chave category of seriousness, but I’ve been deriving huge pleasure from the fruity, sappy St. Josephs of Barou. We had the 2011 last night, which is a bit lighter than the 2010, but so yummy – just chuggable. It’s pretty inky but the tannins are light and soft and it has very pure syrah flavors. The fruit would appeal to a New World palette, but it’s balanced and has no candied quality. Great bang for the buck at $19.

By the way, does anyone know what “Vendange éraflée à 80%” means? They use that term on their web site.

[John_Morris]

@Doug Schulman

Can anyone else comment on how Rostaing’s style compares with the styles of other producers being discussed? I have very little experience with any of these wines (unfortunately – going to try to change that), so this is a very interesting discussion for me.

Rostaing leans toward the modern, but I believe he uses less new wood now than he did in the 80s and 90s. His wines have a finesse, but I confess I’ve never had an aged one that really wowed me. They always seem to fall a little short.

[Kenny_H]

@Kevin Harvey

So what do you like in Northern Rhones?

I like the integration of savory components with red fruits and strong acid. That is the entire appeal for me. Interesting to drink and killer at the dinner table.

[John_S]

To sound flakey Rostaing never speaks to me. But to be more analytical they never seem to develop that wonderful balance of meats and olive that I enjoy and is found in spades in Jamet (and old, pre '95 Ogier). Yet the Guigal Las Las are often not that way either but they seem to reach that high pinnacle that I never find Rostaings delivers on. Same for Chapoutier. Certainly they are both good to very good but never have I encountered a wow wine that leaves a lasting impression on me. I am always left with a sense of “glossiness” which likely only has useful meaning to me.

[Dav_d_Parta_n]

Beyond the basic Brune et Blonde Cote Rotie, much Guigal is oak soup to me. The 98 B et B was drinking very well, albeit still young from a mag a few weeks ago. Chapoutier and Jaboulet generally speaking, meh. I’ve enjoyed Burgaud, Ogier, Levet, Jasmin, Jamet, Rostaing, Duclaux, Gerin, Gallet, Guigal, Voge, Clape, Texier, Chave, Clusel Roch, Allemand etc. over the years. I enjoy some of the bigger (new style?) wines as long as the oak is integrated and the extraction is not taken over the top. The taste and aroma of oak in N. Rhones and Red Burgs is off-putting to me. Still favor traditional Jasmin and Jamet. I could drink those every day. Well, maybe not, but anyway, you get my point.

This is a great thread thanks for posting. There are several producers mentioned that I will have to seek out.

[Kenny_H]

@John S

I am always left with a sense of “glossiness” which likely only has useful meaning to me.

I use the term and to me it is a sense of something a little too polished, giving a sense of being superficial. Perhaps manipulated or at least lacking the more rustic characters that the tannin and acids in these kinds of wine can show without the overbearing presence of oak. That what you mean approximately?

[John_S]

Hi Kenny,

Yes we use the terms similarly. I don’t get into the cause of such a descriptor at all. Wines that exhibit those traits leave me without much of a sense of place or character.

[K_John_Joseph]

I’d guess that oak sensitivity is the key factor in whether certain board members are big fans of the la las. Some have lambasted them on this thread, which I think is also a touch fashionable since there is a correlation to high scores from Robert Parker who, as we know, must be wrong. This board is also dominated by a large contingent of burgundy and riesling fans who generally favor lighter acid driven wines than dense, massive wines. That leads to a number of fans of lighter norther rhones like Gonon, Jamet, and Ogier.

I have to say that I’m a fan of most of those wines, though I believe an occasional vintage of Ogier can get a little acid heavy. I am a big fan of Chave, a fan of some of Chapoutier’s wines, and a fan of the La Las. I drink a large amount of Napa cabernet, followed by burgundy and oregon pinot. I think that the heavy dose of Napa in my diet reflects a palate preference towards the larger side of the spectrum, though that’s only partially true in many regions. I’ve got my limits, believe me.

Even so, I do not find the oak on my La las to be overwhelming or disturbing. I’ve found most of the La Las from the 70s-90s (I’ve not had the 91 though) to be pretty damn wonderful. I think the oak integrates quite well, and that with age, the wines develop an incredible density and complexity that is simply stunning. I’ve had them blind many times mixed in with top tier wines from around the world, and they frequently come in near the top of the tasting for me, and others. Since we’re talking blind, all the bullshit about points and Parker is out the window. To some, they are simply incredible wines that explode with complexity.

[Michael_Davidson]

@John Morris

This is not in the Allemand/Chave category of seriousness, but I’ve been deriving huge pleasure from the fruity, sappy St. Josephs of Barou. We had the 2011 last night, which is a bit lighter than the 2010, but so yummy – just chuggable. It’s pretty inky but the tannins are light and soft and it has very pure syrah flavors. The fruit would appeal to a New World palette, but it’s balanced and has no candied quality. Great bang for the buck at $19.

By the way, does anyone know what “Vendange éraflée à 80%” means? They use that term on their web site.

Barou is terrific. The VdP has got to be the best $13 syrah in the world. Even with shipping to the west coast it’s a great value. Imported by Chambers St, so not available (that I’m aware of) elsewhere.

Michael

[Robert_Kenney]

@Kevin Harvey

@Jay Miller

No real experience with recent Jamet vintages as they’ve gotten too expensive but I always loved the olivey thing they do so well.

Jay,
That olive character is predominantly contributed by using the stems (especially in a cool year). I love it too.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Best,

Kenney

[Jay_Miller]

@John Morris

@Doug Schulman

Can anyone else comment on how Rostaing’s style compares with the styles of other producers being discussed? I have very little experience with any of these wines (unfortunately – going to try to change that), so this is a very interesting discussion for me.

Rostaing leans toward the modern, but I believe he uses less new wood now than he did in the 80s and 90s. His wines have a finesse, but I confess I’ve never had an aged one that really wowed me. They always seem to fall a little short.

Ditto

[Robert.A.Jr]

@Michael Davidson

@John Morris

This is not in the Allemand/Chave category of seriousness, but I’ve been deriving huge pleasure from the fruity, sappy St. Josephs of Barou. We had the 2011 last night, which is a bit lighter than the 2010, but so yummy – just chuggable. It’s pretty inky but the tannins are light and soft and it has very pure syrah flavors. The fruit would appeal to a New World palette, but it’s balanced and has no candied quality. Great bang for the buck at $19.

By the way, does anyone know what “Vendange éraflée à 80%” means? They use that term on their web site.

Barou is terrific. The VdP has got to be the best $13 syrah in the world. Even with shipping to the west coast it’s a great value. Imported by Chambers St, so not available (that I’m aware of) elsewhere.

Michael

Thanks, Michael. I have been eyeing it out of total curiosity, wondering if I could bag another knock-out QPR for daily drinking in the Domaine Guion price-range. Have you tried the whites as well? My likely $13 prices for easy, but quality, slurping.

[Gerhard_P]

@Kevin Harvey

@Gerhard P.

I know the Northern Rhone and the most important producers well for close to 25 years.
For me there is no doubt that the wines of Guigal are of very high quality - and the initially high oak integrates exceptionally well with time IMHO.
(e.g. please suggest a better Cote-Rotie from 1987 than La Landonne/Guigal …!)

Gerhard,
Thanks, I hoped to hear a spirited defense of Guigal.
I have often wondered if the winemaking changed after the '80s. In any case, I do not find the oak integrating in the wines of the '90s. In particular I have closely watched the '91s (a great year in Cote Rotie) and the oak presence is still offensive to me. It may eventually integrate but 22 years is beyond my limit of patience.

In the 90ies Philippe Guigal took over step by step, but he didn´t change much (as far as I´m concerned), except longing for riper fruit in the negoce grapes, and introduce the Ch. d´Ampuis …

Last year I made a comprehensive LaLa-tasting with 15 Guigal crus - and 15 other wines (Rostaing, Ogier, Jamet, Gerin …) - several great wines made also by the latter group (Cote blonde 1999, Belle Helene 1997 …), but rarely any disapointing Guigal … 1994 and older drinking beautifully (certainly not oaky), 1997 soon coming along …

@John Morris

@Doug Schulman

Can anyone else comment on how Rostaing’s style compares with the styles of other producers being discussed? I have very little experience with any of these wines (unfortunately – going to try to change that), so this is a very interesting discussion for me.

Rostaing leans toward the modern, but I believe he uses less new wood now than he did in the 80s and 90s. His wines have a finesse, but I confess I’ve never had an aged one that really wowed me. They always seem to fall a little short.

I disagree somewhat.
While Rostaing isn´t working as traditionally (some may say old fashioned) as his uncle Marius Gentaz and his Father in law Albert Dervieux he is far from modern.
He uses less and less new oak (15-20 % maximum), aging in demi muids and larger fudres, rarely in barriques, he prefers harvesting at the perfect time, avoiding sur-mautuity and maintaining lively acidity,
he destems partially, he uses roto-tanks (but very sensibly), he doesn´t filter but does a very light fining …
The wines are always very elegant, perfect at the table, accessable quite early but holding for 20-25+ years …
no fruit bombs, not oaky at all, and very typical for the terroir (in fact all wines are treated likewise, all differences due to the vineyard ), with the Cote blonde - and also La Landonne - usually very fine.