We had a sales meeting and the Francophile in the room didn’t like a California Syrah that we were trying.
I commented that is was very Northern Rhone which was a lead in to an argument of what people’s perception of what the Northern Rhone style is.
The Francophile was very adamant that the style we were drinking was ‘New World’ and when I asked him if he had had the 09’s or 10’s from N.Rhone, he had said no, then I told him he had no room to comment unless he tries those.
The style of Northern Rhone ranges so widely that one cannot make a simple statement that ‘this is Northern Rhone’ because the style in the past 10 years has changed so much.
I will say for those that don’t like Lala’s, try them in off vintages, that’s where I think they shine…
Which 01 Northern Rhones have you been disappointed in that led you to declare it an off vintage? That’s not my experience at all (though I haven’t had a great deal of the wines since they were young).
What do I like in Northern Rhones? I like for them to show all sorts of non-fruit secondary character without much (or any) influence from new oak. Allemand, Jamet, and Chave all belong in my pantheon of Rhone heroes.
That is my take as well, Alan, on Jamet. I do not have deep experience with Jamet, but the ones that I have tried have been more elegant in style, especially compared to Allemand or Clape.
I agree with your other statement as well. I only buy a very limited set of Cali syrahs, but even those supposedly in a Northern Rhone style would not confuse me in any way. Not even the new Copains, which I like (club members for the SVDs).
All of these producers have been making wine for years and nail the best elements of Natural Wines without the flaws.
Dard & Ribo (The Hermitage is a serious wine that needs some age all others are ready to drink)
Hervé Souhaut (The St Epine is amazing)
Jean Michel Stephen (I like the entry level Côte Rôtie the best).
Seriously, I don´t care what “this board” or CT thinks about Northern Rhone or Guigal or any other wine - at least when it differs from my own view (no offense intended though).
I know the Northern Rhone and the most important producers well for close to 25 years.
For me there is no doubt that the wines of Guigal are of very high quality - and the initially high oak integrates exceptionally well with time IMHO.
(e.g. please suggest a better Cote-Rotie from 1987 than La Landonne/Guigal …!)
Sure one may appreciate the style - or dislike it - but the high quality is doubtless there - and the high prices have their reason. In all major appellations the Guigal cuvées (I´m talking about the self-owned vineyards) are among the very best - and the most ageable, too.
(ok, the regular Condrieu is boring - and La Doriane is a question of taste …)
There are other fine producers, like Jamet, Ogier, Rostaing, Chapoutier (and the late Gentaz-Dervieux) in Cote-Rotie, Chave, Chapoutier in Hermitage, Clape, Voge, Allemand, Verset in Cornas … but they are certainly no “better” but sometimes “comparable” in quality.
My affection for St.Joseph is not very high, too often the wines are too fruity and foreward (even Chaves …). I´ve tasted only two wines by Gonon, an early 1990s vintage (1994?) which didn´t impress me - and a 2005 which was excellent - so I won´t say much about this producer.
Even the regular “Brune et Blonde”-or Hermitage-bottlings/Guigal from the 1980s are still drinkin beautifully (1982, 83, 85, 88) - but I admit the quality has decreased somewhat after the introduction of Chateau d´Ampuis in 1995.
I see absolutely no reason to deny the high niveau of Guigals wines … moreover: if he hasn´t pushed the quality upwards over the last 30 years (and made it popular) I doubt if many winefreaks here would even know what a Cote-Rotie or Rhone-Syrah is all about …
(BTW: as with other regions I think many - especially in the US - are drinking wines too early by the case … so how many really know what a well aged Guigal is like?)
Not to pile on to Matt’s comment on Jamet, but I tend to agree with the rest about Jamet being more elegant relative to Allemand or Clape. Although, and to Matt’s point, my experiences with Jamet is that when young, they are not nearly as elegant, nor are they approachable, as when they become after 10+ years in cellar.
Robert, I have been repeatedly impressed by the Gamay and Saint Joseph, but have yet to taste the Saint Epine. If I remember correctly, they are made in a (semi)carbonic style. Is the Saint Epine more structured for aging?
Speaking of Northern Rhone styles, what’s the deal with Chave’s Hermitage lately?
I’ve not had any since the 2001 vintage, and liked most of prior vintages, but I’m curious as to the styles of the recent vintages.
Gerhard,
Thanks, I hoped to hear a spirited defense of Guigal.
I have often wondered if the winemaking changed after the '80s. In any case, I do not find the oak integrating in the wines of the '90s. In particular I have closely watched the '91s (a great year in Cote Rotie) and the oak presence is still offensive to me. It may eventually integrate but 22 years is beyond my limit of patience.
Yup…that Gamay is pretty amazing stuff. From 80 yr old vines, grown just outside the StJoseph boundary…so just an IGP wine.
Like Kevin…I think the Guigal LaLas are overrated. Way to much oak when young and it only partially diminishes w/ time that I’ve seen.
Too Calif in style…but they do get big scores out of Monktown.
I far prefer the Guigal regular Brune et Blonde for what I like in NorthernRhone.
I’m also in the camp that thinks the Jamet’s are more feminine in style. But I love their fragrant/floral type of fruit.
I don’t drink nearly as much C-R as I used to…because of the price.
I think the style changed a bit in the late '90s (a little more “modern”. Maybe more malo in barrel, less stems) but with cellar time the wines are classic and great IMO. For example the '99 seemed a bit muddled when young but is drinking better and better right now.
I drink and have tasted a slew of N. Rhone but stopped visiting Ampuis a few years back. Anyhow my favorites are easily Chave Hermitage, Jamet, Ogier, and Allemand. I would put the Guigal Las Las up there as well (likely at the top) even though I stopped buying many years ago. The Las Las can be oaky young but the '85 and '88 La Mouline are still some of the absolute best wines I have have tasted. I confess I always prefer the Mouline, then Turque, and lastly Landonne which seems to always need more time. I’ve actually never seen anyone taste a mature la la that was correct and not swoon.
On Jamet I have no idea about CT scores. It pretty much never is fruity or forward young but man the '91 sure can sing. The '99 is another great one. Perhaps the more meaty profile scares people off when young and they never get to taste a mature one. They certainly are not for palates who prefer riper styled wines. Ogier is a bit of a hybrid between Jamet and Guigals so to speak in terms of modernization and wood. The Lancement is my stylistic favorite and reminds me a bit of the old Gentaz wines.
No real experience with recent Jamet vintages as they’ve gotten too expensive but I always loved the olivey thing they do so well. I hear the style has changed a bit in recent years but other people disagree about that.
I’m getting priced out of Allemand, Gonon disappears pretty quickly - two of my favorites. I enjoy Dard & Ribo very much though I worry about aging them. There’s a Cote Rotie producer someone violated the shhh policy on above that I started buying pre-hiatus.
Never understood the appeal of the Parker favorites Guigal and Chapoutier. I usually like, but am not thrilled by, Jaboulet. I don’t buy any of them.
I liked the 1999 JM Stephans very much but I must admit they didn’t age all that well. Almost never see recent vintages. I enjoyed the basic Ogier CRs in the '90s (not their super cuvee whose name escapes me at the moment), again I haven’t had any recent vintages.
Some information here. Not entirely clear if the St Epine is carbonic. It is so good now I am not going to worry about aging but my guess is it will age.
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what bottle were you guys trying?