New Yorkers Are So Lucky -- Russ and Daughters

[Dav1dZ]

@Peter Kleban

@DavidZ

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

That’s why I smoke my own salmon. The salmon starts at a minimum of $15/lb itself (I prefer to use Norwegian farmed after several tatste tests). Then you cure it for a couple of days and the moisture sweats out leaving an even lighter piece of salmon.

I do really like their food, especially their [salty] lox, and their “whitefish” (it includes a heavy dose of kippered salmon) salad. I also enjoy going their, which I do very infrequently, as I live 100 miles away. Being in the store is as good of a sensory experience as being in Armand Rousseau’s moldy cellar.

Agree. I don’t smoke my own salmon (being in the city precludes that) but I do cure my own gravlax.

Barney Greengrass’s pickled lox is much better than R&Ds, FWIW.

How do you like BGs sturgeon? Supposed to be their specialty, no? Only been there twice, first time had lox (really good), second time was Saturday, so they were closed (Oy! what was I thinking?). The ambiance is really like a 60s time warp, with slightly faded period wallpaper and customers.

I prefer Murray’s, a few blocks away, for sturgeon. I adore sturgeon.

My internal list goes:

• Zabars for nova
• R&D for herring
• Murray’s for sturgeon
• BG for pickled lox.
• Eli’s for whitefish salad (and fish salads generally), with Murray’s a close second.

Don’t really have a view for sable or hot smoked whitefish - I suspect everyone is using the same supplier for those (probably Acme). Suspect R&D is best for baked/kippered salmon, but I much prefer hot smoked whitefish.

Of course, us being Jews, I am sure that everyone else has a different list.

[Dav1dZ]

@Corey N.

Thanks David, I’ve come across it before and never tried it. In the past I’ve liked recipes with lots of dill, but not any cheaper than the Costco version of gravlax, which is quite tasty.

IMO, the way to value add with gravlax is to (a) use salmon that’s better quality than the farmed salmon - or at least has a different character and/or (b) use something other than dill. Because the mass-market guys have got the dill/sugar/farmed salmon recipe pretty much down pat, and they can make a much more consistent product.

[Peter_Kleban]

@DavidZ

@Peter Kleban

@DavidZ

Agree. I don’t smoke my own salmon (being in the city precludes that) but I do cure my own gravlax.

Barney Greengrass’s pickled lox is much better than R&Ds, FWIW.

How do you like BGs sturgeon? Supposed to be their specialty, no? Only been there twice, first time had lox (really good), second time was Saturday, so they were closed (Oy! what was I thinking?). The ambiance is really like a 60s time warp, with slightly faded period wallpaper and customers.

I prefer Murray’s, a few blocks away, for sturgeon. I adore sturgeon.

My internal list goes:

• Zabars for nova
• R&D for herring
• Murray’s for sturgeon
• BG for pickled lox.
• Eli’s for whitefish salad (and fish salads generally), with Murray’s a close second.

Don’t really have a view for sable or hot smoked whitefish - I suspect everyone is using the same supplier for those (probably Acme). Suspect R&D is best for baked/kippered salmon, but I much prefer hot smoked whitefish.

Of course, us being Jews, I am sure that everyone else has a different list.

For sure–otherwise what would there be worth arguing about?

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@DavidZ

@Corey N.

Thanks David, I’ve come across it before and never tried it. In the past I’ve liked recipes with lots of dill, but not any cheaper than the Costco version of gravlax, which is quite tasty.

IMO, the way to value add with gravlax is to (a) use salmon that’s better quality than the farmed salmon - or at least has a different character and/or (b) use something other than dill. Because the mass-market guys have got the dill/sugar/farmed salmon recipe pretty much down pat, and they can make a much more consistent product.

You ought to do some taste testing re: the level of salmon to use. When I first started smoking this stuff in 2004-5…i bought all kinds of salmon (wild, “organic” (whatever that means) and different countries’ farmed versions). I did blind “tastes” at least twice…and concluded the lean nature of wild salmon was not nearly as good as the fattier, farmed salmon, after curing and smoking…and…concluded the waters of Norway added to the interest/complexity in the product. No idea on gravalox as I don’t really like it that much or try to make it.

I have a feeling in NY that Acme supplies a lot more of the various stores’ fish than we/you think. So, figuring the places to buy “salty” lox or nova…that are “best” are likely serving the same product.

Lots of b.s. in the supposed “from scratch” of the NYC deli and “appetizing” industry. No one admits they buy finished products…and why shouldn’t they buy them, I guess when a place like Acme or the place that Katz’s buys its pastramis do such good jobs.

[Barry_L_i_p_t_o_n]

I mail order R&D a couple times a year. Awesome Gaspe Nova and Reserve Sturgeon

[Corey_N]

I thought the Reserve Sturgeon was wildly overrated.

[Dav1dZ]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

You ought to do some taste testing re: the level of salmon to use. When I first started smoking this stuff in 2004-5…i bought all kinds of salmon (wild, “organic” (whatever that means) and different countries’ farmed versions). I did blind “tastes” at least twice…and concluded the lean nature of wild salmon was not nearly as good as the fattier, farmed salmon, after curing and smoking…and…concluded the waters of Norway added to the interest/complexity in the product. No idea on gravalox as I don’t really like it that much or try to make it.

Stuart, you can’t imagine how detailed I’ve gotten on this! I fully agree that sockeye salmon is not really suitable for classic gravlax (though can be good - albeit different - if you massage the recipe). However, not all species are the same, and in-season Alaskan Chinook (King) is the absolute, categorical best salmon to use for curing (or, I assume, cold smoking). Coho not bad, either. We don’t get wild atlantic salmon here in NYC, at least I’ve never seen it, so I don’t know how that compares to farmed.

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I have a feeling in NY that Acme supplies a lot more of the various stores’ fish than we/you think. So, figuring the places to buy “salty” lox or nova…that are “best” are likely serving the same product.

Lots of b.s. in the supposed “from scratch” of the NYC deli and “appetizing” industry. No one admits they buy finished products…and why shouldn’t they buy them, I guess when a place like Acme or the place that Katz’s buys its pastramis do such good jobs.

There’s an element of truth to this, but also plenty of misconceptions. First off, Acme isn’t the only show in town - in the NYC area alone, there’s Catsmo, Samaki, Banner, etc… The different producers each make a slightly different product, so you may prefer one store’s nova to another because you’re really preferring Catsmo to Acme.

Second, I understand that like the beef industry, not all Acme-smoked sides of fish (or Catsmo-smoked, etc.) are the same, and you’re paying for that ‘not the same’ when you buy from a better store. I don’t think that matters much for sable or whitefish, but I do think there are differences in salmon and sturgeon, even within a supplier. My basis for this is conversations with an acquaintance who’s a Zabar, and also looking at the unopened packages behind fish counters around the city. You can pretty easily tell the difference between fish that’s been packaged bespoke and fish that is basically commoditized.

Finally, pickled lox is made onsite at the good appetizing stores, as is most of the interesting herring. And, of course, fish salads - the difference among whitefish salads is purely recipe, not quality of fish.

[Dan_Hammer]

At about $25 -30 per person I can say we ate at R&D once, and that’s it. I’d much rather buy at the counter on Houston St and bring my goody bag home to eat.

As for the bench, there are now 2.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@DavidZ

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I have a feeling in NY that Acme supplies a lot more of the various stores’ fish than we/you think. So, figuring the places to buy “salty” lox or nova…that are “best” are likely serving the same product.

Lots of b.s. in the supposed “from scratch” of the NYC deli and “appetizing” industry. No one admits they buy finished products…and why shouldn’t they buy them, I guess when a place like Acme or the place that Katz’s buys its pastramis do such good jobs.

Second, I understand that like the beef industry, not all Acme-smoked sides of fish (or Catsmo-smoked, etc.) are the same, and you’re paying for that ‘not the same’ when you buy from a better store. I don’t think that matters much for sable or whitefish, but I do think there are differences in salmon and sturgeon, even within a supplier. My basis for this is conversations with an acquaintance who’s a Zabar, and also looking at the unopened packages behind fish counters around the city. You can pretty easily tell the difference between fish that’s been packaged bespoke and fish that is basically commoditized.

I think that “bespoke” often involves “bespoke” packaging and little, if anything, more.

Related, but different, is that awful Green’s babka, which is “bespoke” packaged for the house babka at Zabar’s and at Russ’, among other places. A local supermarket gave me a free sample last week when I told them that their house brand was awful (after the manager had promised me it was great and he’d double my money back). Theirs and Green’s, without raisins is just cinnamon cinnamon cinnamon …and reminds me of the “cinnamon challenge” one of my sons’ friends 'took" following the superbowl , at our house, a few years ago. (I think a good cinnamon babka must have raisins, much like a wine must have acidity to balance alcohol…and I don’t like chocolate babka).

But, fish are variable, of course. Russ’ has made it seem like some are more vaunted than others…like an AOC Burgundy…and Ive never seen the value. I’ll stick with my Norwegian farmed for cold-smoked; almost every taster liked it best when I was trying them out. And, it was totally “blind”. We were very surprised, given the cost.

[Dav1dZ]

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I think that “bespoke” often involves “bespoke” packaging and little, if anything, more.

Related, but different, is that awful Green’s babka, which is “bespoke” packaged for the house babka at Zabar’s and at Russ’, among other places. A local supermarket gave me a free sample last week when I told them that their house brand was awful (after the manager had promised me it was great and he’d double my money back). Theirs and Green’s, without raisins is just cinnamon cinnamon cinnamon …and reminds me of the “cinnamon challenge” one of my sons’ friends 'took" following the superbowl , at our house, a few years ago. (I think a good cinnamon babka must have raisins, much like a wine must have acidity to balance alcohol…and I don’t like chocolate babka).

But, fish are variable, of course. Russ’ has made it seem like some are more vaunted than others…like an AOC Burgundy…and Ive never seen the value. I’ll stick with my Norwegian farmed for cold-smoked; almost every taster liked it best when I was trying them out. And, it was totally “blind”. We were very surprised, given the cost.

You completely ignored my point about the different producers. Have you compared Acme to Catsmo to Banner to Samaki to Springfield? Do you have a view on which you prefer? Do you know which stores carry which?

Also, when did your blind tasting, was it summer (so that you could get fresh, not frozen, wild king)? That’s highly relevant - salmon is like tomatoes.

I think its much easier to conclude fish is commoditized outside of NYC, since that’s where all the cold-smoked action is. (Well, NYC and Seattle, but who lives in Seattle?!) It would be really interesting to do a blind tasting of all the various producers - and smoked fish lends itself to blind tasting since it can be bought in advance and served cold. If anyone is interested, that’s an offline I would love to try to organize.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@DavidZ

@Stuart BeauneHead Niemtzow

I think that “bespoke” often involves “bespoke” packaging and little, if anything, more.

Related, but different, is that awful Green’s babka, which is “bespoke” packaged for the house babka at Zabar’s and at Russ’, among other places. A local supermarket gave me a free sample last week when I told them that their house brand was awful (after the manager had promised me it was great and he’d double my money back). Theirs and Green’s, without raisins is just cinnamon cinnamon cinnamon …and reminds me of the “cinnamon challenge” one of my sons’ friends 'took" following the superbowl , at our house, a few years ago. (I think a good cinnamon babka must have raisins, much like a wine must have acidity to balance alcohol…and I don’t like chocolate babka).

But, fish are variable, of course. Russ’ has made it seem like some are more vaunted than others…like an AOC Burgundy…and Ive never seen the value. I’ll stick with my Norwegian farmed for cold-smoked; almost every taster liked it best when I was trying them out. And, it was totally “blind”. We were very surprised, given the cost.

You completely ignored my point about the different producers. Have you compared Acme to Catsmo to Banner to Samaki to Springfield? Do you have a view on which you prefer? Do you know which stores carry which?

Also, when did your blind tasting, was it summer (so that you could get fresh, not frozen, wild king)? That’s highly relevant - salmon is like tomatoes.

I think its much easier to conclude fish is commoditized outside of NYC, since that’s where all the cold-smoked action is. (Well, NYC and Seattle, but who lives in Seattle?!) It would be really interesting to do a blind tasting of all the various producers - and smoked fish lends itself to blind tasting since it can be bought in advance and served cold. If anyone is interested, that’s an offline I would love to try to organize.

1. Yes, I ignored it. What is there to say? No view on that or pretty much who has “best” fish. Only know Zabars and Russ…as I live in Philadelphia and rarely get to either any more. (But, I’m sure they are all different, as are all fish, probably.) And, then, there’s woods…if they really use wood at them, which I assume they do…but…other than Andrew Zimmern’s visit to Acme…I don’t know.
2. It was September in both occasions…my family break the fast…written ballots, a dozen tasters each time. Two years in a row. All mine were smoked with maple…and I was surprised they liked the Norwegian farmed best by large percentages. (I was also happy given the price.)
3. I wouldn’t be interested in such a tasting of fish. Not that thrilling to me, especially since I smoke and like my own best. Then again, i almost never even go to winetastings anymore. I am skeptical of what can be gleaned from most of them…wines too young;way too many to appreciate at one setting; food to compromise the tasting focus, etc.

[Barry_L_i_p_t_o_n]

@Corey N.

I thought the Reserve Sturgeon was wildly overrated.

How often did you try it? I’ve had it a dozen times and clearly see the difference between the regular and I liked it as much or better than the couple of times I’ve been at Barney Greengrass.

Each to their own, I guess.

[Corey_N]

@Barry L i p t o n

@Corey N.

I thought the Reserve Sturgeon was wildly overrated.

How often did you try it? I’ve had it a dozen times and clearly see the difference between the regular and I liked it as much or better than the couple of times I’ve been at Barney Greengrass.

Each to their own, I guess.

To be fair, I tried it only once. The fish was slightly dry and I didn’t care for the mouthfeel. It was disappointing enough that I didn’t try it a second time, but I don’t normally order sturgeon anyway.

[Victor_Hong]

@Corey N.

…The fish was slightly dry and I didn’t care for the mouthfeel. …

Who cares how its mouth feels?

[Corey_N]

@Victor Hong

@Corey N.

…The fish was slightly dry and I didn’t care for the mouthfeel. …

Who cares how its mouth feels?

I suppose it depends on how you plan to use the fish. #DontGoThere

[Victor_Hong]

@Corey N.

@Victor Hong

@Corey N.

…The fish was slightly dry and I didn’t care for the mouthfeel. …

Who cares how its mouth feels?

I suppose it depends on how you plan to use the fish. #DontGoThere

If you cannot do deli for brunch, do Chinese.

[Corey_N]

@Victor Hong

If you cannot do deli for brunch, do Chinese.

I love to do Chinese, but dim sum is hard – it’s 85% pork and shrimp.

Usually, I like going to Triple Crown on Wentworth because they make a really nice fish (or beef) congee with plenty of ginger. Of course, I still prefer home made.

[Michael_Sopher]

Russ and Daughters is great. But who drags all the way downtown for a bagel.

My list is def influenced by location (UWS)
Zabars - herring
Murrays - whitefish salad (had some last weekend… worth dragging up to 88th St for)
Fairway - nova (Zabars a close second… and first if the better Fairway cutter isn’t there)
BG - nothing… I hate that place…

[Victor_Hong]

@Corey N.

I love to do Chinese, but dim sum is hard – it’s 85% pork and shrimp.

Usually, I like going to Triple Crown on Wentworth because they make a really nice fish (or beef) congee with plenty of ginger. Of course, I still prefer home made.

Thread drift, eh, onto some new topic?

[Dav1dZ]

Combining info from a bunch of different resources, some interesting info about what wood the various producers are using on their nova (or, in the case of H. Forman, their basic smoked salmon):

Banner - maple
Acme - apple/cherry blend
Catsmo - apple/cherry blend
Samaki - beech/oak blend
Springfield - oak/maple blend
H. Forman - oak