Maison Ilan- no more professional reviews

WINE TALK
41

Oooops - sorry Ray - let me know if I should cull the points from the post neener

42

[welldone.gif]

43

Ray, my question is not about the professional notes, which come out after I buy the wines anyway. Instead, I question your not writing notes. I have used your descriptions of the various wines to determine style and which wines to buy. How should I determine which of your wines to buy?

44

I’m happy that Ray has the freedom to make this kind of decision, but I’m still not sure that I get it. Perhaps I didn’t quite understand his comments, or perhaps he didn’t really quite say what he wanted to say…

I too don’t have much use anymore for most of the individual tasting notes from the professionals, although I do quite value their general comments (which are sometimes way too politically guarded). But I certainly don’t think that the wine boards necessarily have a leg up up these folks interms of their chops in assessing wines, the context in which they drink them, or whatever. If I’ve tasted with someone on the boards, or for some other reason have a pretty good calibration of their palate, well, that might qualify. while the aggregate database of the wine boards can be pretty useful, you have to be pretty careful about who you truly trust enough on the boards to help you make buying decisions.

So for a tiny domain, who’s wines are not necessarily cheap, and who’s winemaker now won’t publish his comments, and if you are someome who is not going to make it to France more than once in a blue moon (me), How are you to kow if this is a domaine to pursue?

Obviously, try a bottle. But what if it’s an off day, or you ate the wrong thing before hand, or it’s just not showing well that day? So try several bottles. That’s a few hundred dollar flier. I don’t know–again, i’m not so sure that I get it.

45

I wish Ray nothing but the best. But, unless you’ve got deep pockets, the less well-healed in the WB community might want to step back a bit and see where these wines go. This is a new guy on the block and if you can’t afford to take some hits as Ray finds his sea legs, be a little bit careful. As the initial euphoria of his bold new adventure tempers, he will have to hold up against Dujac, Rousseau and many others who have been at this a long time and have deservedly solidified their place in the red burg hierarchy. If he senses that the pros may be poised to rain a little on his parade, then it may be to his commercial advantage to be proactive and suggest to his early admirers that he doesn’t need the pros to sell his wines. But the truth will only emerge when the corks start popping in earnest, whether by the knowledgeable amateurs or the pros, and it may be at least a few years before any kind of experienced consensus begins to emerge. I hope Ray pulls it off, but I’m afraid he has reduced his long range chances of broadening his base by aiming a little too low. Nonetheless, I respect and admire his convictions and if he’s OK with taking the risk, then cheers to he and his family and I earnestly hope they prosper and enjoy the good life as a vintner in one of the most beautiful places in all of the wine kingdom. [cheers.gif]

46

I’ll be around next week to answer any and all questions that have and will come up regarding my position on this. For now, since I happen to be awake, I’ll address Howard and John’s comments.

Hey Howard,
I appreciate that you use my descriptions inside of the newsletters in order to be more informed on potentially what to buy. I never said that I would stop writing descriptions of vineyards or speaking of the history of the vineyards, I won’t actually change a single aspect of what I say or write. I’ve just never written notes or impressions on my own wines and don’t plan on changing that.

Someone earlier in the thread mentioned something similar as well. Rest assured, what I have done in the past will, (for better or worse) continue. But, this includes not telling tasters what I think they are, should or could possibly be tasting. I just haven’t and will not do it.

Hello John
your question ties in well with Howard’s so it is easy to address the both of them together in my tired state and still remain somewhat precise in what I communicate. I understand that my wines aren’t cheap if you look at them in a certain light. I respect your opinion of this. And I agree that not having an idea about a wine that is being produced in another country makes it more difficult to pull the trigger with confidence to a lot of people. Tasting notes and impressions from professionals and amateurs alike can be something that people feel to be a help to them, at least some people feel this way. In addition to this, some like a producer to describe the wines while others don’t. A lot of these things fall into the personal preferences department for me. I can’t say what is right or wrong. But, what I can do is act according to what my own preferences are as a consumer and what I see of value as not only a producer but as a member of the wine community (here and generally speaking).

I have to be specific and mention that no small degree of my preferences as a consumer being that I don’t want to hear tasting notes from a producer (one thing that truly bothers me) on their own wine. The conditions during the growing season, general comparisons in this respect to other vintages, vineyard history, details on their specific experience with the vineyard, how the wines went from one stage to the next during fermentations, and details of inputs performed are what most interest me.

If I may be allowed to dip into the earlier comment about what a community of tasters can do better or differently than what a professional can do I’d lie to say that I never expressed a belief that an amateur could do anything a professional couldn’t or vice-versa. But I did mention that I wanted to have an open door policy about amateurs speaking about my wines. These impressions do not place a lasting number or set of flavors and aromas on a wines shoulders. They seem by nature to be more a snapshot in a wine’s life which I believe is part of the experience. There are still flaws in the line of communication between any writer or reader of these impressions, but in my opinion, it reinforces what I personally see and appreciate in the culture of wine.


I am considering setting up a page off of my website that will provide consumers a place to record their experiences of our wines. This is not about censoring, it is about focusing on what I believe is important and of value to anyone interested in enjoying our wines. There are countless facets to this, trust me.

47

I actually pretty strongly (but respectfully) disagree with this. The average professional tasting note for Burgundy is done from wine out of a single barrel before the wine has finished elevage. They usually quickly taste a wine and then move onto the next. They visit many producers in a day. For these reasons I take barrel tasting notes with an enormous grain of salt. While that approach is necessary for a professional critic it is far from an optimal manner in which to make judgment on a wine.

While I don’t put much importance on the average “amature” tasting note, there are a few people here whose judgment I trust. Very importantly they are not usually tasting wines in artificial contexts but are drinking wines in a way I would: with dinner or sharing a few bottles with friends. This is an infinitely better way to make a judgment about a wine than a quick barrel tasting experience during a marathon tasting day. Letting a wine develop in the bottle and glass is critically important to really get a measure of it. Furthermore, too many critics try and be “objective” with their scores and will rate a wine high even if it isnt really their style. While I understand the idea behind that approach an amature taster is more likely to make a subjective judgment on a wine. If I share a similar set of palate preferences with that person, then their opinion means alot to me. Lastly, I think the desire for a critic to maintain “access” to a producer is a very strong subconscious motivating force to not give a bad score/review. I think that is one of the sources of critics trying to give “objective” reviews. “Well its not my style, but those who like oak charcoal flavored chocolate shakes will love it! 93 points!”.

48

Hello David
thank you for your response and sincere concern. I understand that it comes from a good place. I’m not too sure that passing on professional tasters will limit our wines from reaching consumers. There are many details to this, but my goal isn’t to have too much wine as it is anyhow. And, yes, I feel that my experience in Burgundy has been brief, this we agree on. If you believe that this means that our wines are different regarding to quality (not that you have stated this in any way) or a risk in your eyes, I would never say anything to change your mind.

Regarding my timing, it is fair to say that my wines have sold out already. A critic liking or not liking my 2011s wouldn’t change a thing if that was indeed my intention. In fact, I’m quite pleased with my wines, especially with the vintages we’ve been having…2011 included. Likewise, my 2009s and 2010s did not improve just because positive things were said of them. The wines are as they are. Simple as that. They don’t taste like Rousseau or Dujac. And, while I enjoy wines from both of these producers, I am perfectly happy that mine are different and that they are different from each other.

Now, I have to mention one thing about experience, if this is alright with you. With everything that I actually do from getting grapes to packaging up everything there aren’t really a whole lot of things that I do. I could list literally everything that I do. I can make you a bet that you’d be hard pressed to point to where years more of experience would yield a dramatic difference in the resulting quality of my wines. I say this because things such as taking poor grapes off of a sorting table, hopping into a tank to press them down, opening a valve to allow the barrels to be filled, shoveling out grape skins and moving them over to a press and then walking a handle around that same press…well, you either do these things or you don’t. I’m not good at them or bad at them, or increasing in my skill. It is either done or not. I really don’t know how else to explain it, but it is really that simple.

49

Said in another way: I don’t think Ray feels he deserves much credit if the wine is good or bad. He is super low interventionalist and pretty much lets the wine take care of itself. I know alot of producers say this, but ray really does approach wine like this.

I’ll use an example from my own experience: I made some Pinot Noir grown in California from the 2011 vintage. The wine turned out pretty good and here is the sum total of what I did:

  1. Took the berries off the stems on put them in a fermenter
  2. Added a small dose of s02 half way through the fermentations (because I chickened out when I smelled VA. In retrospect I wish I hadnt. The VA took care of itself when the fermentation really got going)
  3. pushed down the floating grape skins into the must about once every two days
  4. Pressed the wine off the skins
  5. Put the wine into carboys to age

That is litetally all I did. It turns out the wines were suprisingly good. Am I a good amature winemaker? Well no, I didn’t really do anything. I can’t take any credit. A five year old could have done it. I literally just let the wine ferment and looked over it to make sure it didnt spoil. I mirrored my approach on what Ray does and what Gideon Bienstock of clos Saron does. In other words they dont really do anything. They just give the wine a chance to ferment and try to keep it from spoiling.

I know this may sound like Im marketing for people whose wine I like and who I admire as indivduals, but they already sell out and don’t need my help. I just find the appoach fascinating. Its an interesting approach to making wine and I like the results.

50

I appreciate Ray’s point about the limits of snapshots, and I think Berry is right that professional critics tend to get those snapshots at particularly inopportune points in a wine’s development – generally too early. Even for domestic producers who are reviewed after bottling, the really long lag between submission and publication usually means that wines are tasted by reviewers well before they are ready for release. I think it’s pretty valid to expect that amateurs will at least take their snapshots during points in a wine’s development when it stands a better chance of hitting on all cylinders.

51

Bingo!! [winner.gif]

52

Actually, I find that many board members sample wines at what I would regard as inopportune times, when i would think the wines would not be showing well, and when I would leave the wines well enough alone.

I don’t really think that I necessarily disagree so much with you or Berry, but I do think that at least I pesonally have to be very careful in chosing who I listen to on the board in terms of wine preferences, and in particular choosing what wines to buy. an example might be the 2009 Burg vintage. you’ll read some glowing notes on the board (and from critics), but I haven’t really had many wines that I really particulary fall for, and I’m not sure that I’d be happy that I bought the wines as they age.

I do think that one of the major advantages of the board is that you get multiple snapshots of wines that you can piece together in way that you can’t in any other setting.

Anyway–thanks, Ray, for explaining yourself a little better. I think I understand your rationale a little better.

Also, frankly, I don’t particularly want tasting notes from producers either, but I surely want as much description of how particular wines behave and age, and how vineyard sites compare, etc.

53

No worries, John.


And for anyone reading, I’m cordial, but please don’t let this prevent you from asking anything you’d like to know. No hard feelings at all.

Last thing I wanted to mention on that topic was about timing and my wines since I only have one vintage (of a mere 3) that has not been reviewed. I sold through my 2011s to a strong majority of Private clients and importers that tasted the 2011s Prior to buying. The actual figure is around 80% of those having tasted first, with this specific percentage being dominated by importers.


Now that we have fleshed out a few of the questions, I wanted to say thank you for everyone that gets it. Mentioning something like this isn’t exactly easy. The support means a lot to my family.

[cheers.gif]

54

I believe framing and anchoring effects are large in wine criticism, so for some wines, the amateur/pro distinction is less meaningful than who gets the first [credible] words in. I applaud the winemaker limiting his own commentary along with the pro critics, otherwise it could act as a way to shape the narrative disguised as being extra-authentic.

We all build magic castles of contrivance in our minds when it comes to wine. That is not to say that there aren’t qualitative differences in the composition and affect of wines, of course there are. But I don’t buy the idea that avoiding select inputs makes a big difference in the process of maintaining our castles. If it has an effect, I would think that it releases self-restraint on our intuitive and evocative associations and lets us build fancier castles for ourselves, an effect coming more from the declaration of independence than from the lack of the professional TNs themselves. If on a solid foundation, I’m all for it, but oenophiles passing the rhetorical bottle around the circle with no rigor are not bringing back romance and authenticity so much as engaging in a circle jerk.

This comment strongly influenced by Thinking, Fast and Slow, a wonderful book of insights into psychology written for a general audience. My bottom line: I like my castle and laugh at people who substitute architecture criticism for actual wine appreciation.

55

One significant difference between amateur and pro ratings is that an amateur’s rating won’t be referred to again and again over the years, whereas discussions and marketing copy will forever refer back to the Parker score, etc., even 20 years later. In this way, amateur notes become part of a dynamic flow of notes, whereas the pro ratings truly are a snapshot in time that really continue to hold sway for a lot of people despite their being static, and in Ray’s view if I read him correctly, outdated soon after the wine was tasted.

56

I love philosophy, but hate reading it. Could you write this in non-Philosophy speak, please?

57

[thumbs-up.gif]

58

David…very well said.

As the initial euphoria of his bold new adventure tempers, he will have to hold up against Dujac, Rousseau and many others who have been at this a long time and have deservedly solidified their place in the red burg hierarchy.

Hmmm, it is not fair to compare Ray with Dujac and Rousseau at this early stage of his professional life as a vigeron; but like I said so many times before, I admire him… [cheers.gif]

59

Are there people on this board who buy off of Ray’s mailing list who taste before they buy? I have tasted before the wines are shipped and I know that a lot of others have as well, but never have before Ray makes his initial offerings. If anyone tastes the 2012s before Ray makes his initial offering, please post notes either here or on Ray’s blog. I always have a hard time deciding which wines to buy and would love to have additional information.

By the way, Ray, what are professional critics? Certainly, I know Tanzer, Meadows, Gilman, etc., are professional critics, but in the era of bloggers where are you going to draw the line? For example, if I ever decide to write a wine blog, would you stop allowing me to taste the wines? How about Todd French, David White, Berry Crawford, etc.? Are they professionals for this purpose?

60

Hey Howard, a few are indeed on this board. I imagine we will start having many more notes pop up. One aspect of this is that many of those that taste before they buy (private clients) live out here (Europe), making it easier to pop in. Fwiw, most of those that tasted prior to buying were some of the last to buy since orders were pushed back until the wines were tasted.

Would you agree that it makes sense to have people write impressions on my site or blog (a separate page from everything else)? Cellartracker is really good at this. But I imagine there may still be two or three souls out there that don’t use Eric’s system. Besides, it might be cool to have everything concentrated in one place.

EDIT: Just to clarify, there are a decent amount of people that have tasted before they bought. But, not many actually taste prior to my offer being released…that would be really early.

A lot of the people that actually buy as private clients are people that were referred by someone or saw something on this board. A good amount post here, but many bring up wineberserkers but I’ve never seen them here.

One person of note that recently tasted the 2011s before he bought was your good friend, from DC. C.S.