Maison Ilan- no more professional reviews

WINE TALK
21

I can totally understand where Ray is comming from.

I know the whole points thing has been beaten to dealth here, but for a small producer with a loyal fanbase that trusts the wines, what is the actual utility?

Ive come to believe that if you really like the style/philosophy of a producer you are generally going to like the wines every year. All the reviews can do is drive prices up, so they are not really in the established consumers bennefit.

Like Larry mentions, a new and upcomming producer may bennefit from a good mention from a professional critic but in the brand new world of “social media” and wine message boards word of mouth marketing is probably at least as important. I know personally that every time I find a new producer its because 1) I took a chance on a new name at a wine shop or 2) someone on this board recommended it. CT reviews are good backup source.

22

[winner.gif]

I wonder how many that have commented have actually tasted the wine out of bottle.

23

I think the only review I’ve seen so far was from the OC crowd and it was a “bad” bottle.

24

Other than Saxon, we’re not knowledgeable enough to be professionals, so it was not a ‘professional review’ [snort.gif]

25

I have

26

I’m going to take the other side of the argument here: how can it be bad for consumers to have access to as much information and as many opinions as possible? Why intentionally limit it?

I also don’t understand why amateur tasting reports are to be encouraged while professional reports are not. What do amateurs do better than professionals do? Ray makes a lot of sound points about problems with the tasting note form, but all of these criticisms apply equally to amateurs writing notes as to professionals. Is the premise that amateurs will be less score-focused and less clinical/emotionless? I see no evidence for that. Some amateurs write great notes, some don’t, some write clinically with little emotion, some effusively write only their emotional reaction, some use scores, some don’t, some are experts who have experience tasting barrel samples, some are not, etc.

The only reason I care at all is that I find professional reviews useful. It would be great if I could taste all the wines in Burgundy every year before buying, but that’s a practical impossibility. It would also be great if I could buy my full allocation of every cuvee ever year, but for me that’s financially unrealistic. Professional reviews are one useful factor (although by no means a dispotitive one) in making buying decisions.

27

I have almost no faith , at this point, in “professional” tasters/reviews. They’ve proven-- to me-- to be almost worthless, though they can provide good anecdotes and up[dates on news from their regions. They mainly do barrel tasting, which is very subjective and personal…and can be influenced by which barrel one tastes from.

I have no idea what Ray’s motivation is. If he really sells out everything he makes, he has no need to curry favor with the “professionals”. So, it’s not that gutsy of a move.

I’d rather hear a compendium of tasters’ opinions rather than depend on any of the “known” pros’ impressions. They’ve mislead me on whole vintages…and mislead others on whole scammers’ “produce”.

Of course everyone can’t get to Burgundy to taste, so…we all need to depend on others to a degree. But, I’d much rather buy a known producer/wine in a vintage I have not tasted than depend on these guys’ pronouncements.

28

This is not relevant. This thread is about an idea, not wine in a bottle.

Take your favorite winemaker – any one of 'em --, or a winemaker you respect; now, pretend it was him or her that made this decision: does your reaction remain the same? I’m guessing it does not. If your reaction does remain the same, perhaps you could explain why (i.e.: talk about the idea, not the person, seeing as how this thread is about the idea).

29

I’m guessing that Ray doesn’t want his wines opened early for ‘assessment’. A lot of people think they can do that; but almost no one can.

30

I don’t think it’s about that. People send wines to be rated in order to get scores that supposedly sell wine, or for professional validation, mostly the former. Ray is not going to the professional critics (the old way). Instead he’s looking to open source buzz to differentiate his wine (the new way). He’s not turning his back on the professional wine world. And it’s not simply because he’s in a darling phase and doesn’t “need” scores to sell wine. Plenty of wineries have scores. So what? It’s no solution. He’s established something unique and different and the last thing he should do is get in line with everyone else and send off wine to get rated and discovered. My kids would ridicule that as 20th century behavior. So good for Ray.

31

BRAVO RAY
Hi everyone–I’ve been unforgivably absent most of the summer

32

Somewhat different. Teobaldo asked critics not to score his wines. He did not object to tasting notes.

33

Todd, no doubt your therapist would be happy with your self realization.

34

To everyone who has ever looked at this board, even once-
As people who are researching, buying, discussing and writing about wine online, we are an extremely small percentage of the wine consuming population. Because of this we can carry a large amount of influence for the people around us. Whether we like it or not, we are the ones people recommend for picking out a bottle at dinner or the person who is called on for recommendations before a party. Our friends do this because they trust us and our opinions, and the normal wine drinker doesn’t trust the scores or even really care about them. They aren’t looking for hints of lavender or gooseberry. “Screw the poetic tasting notes” our friends say. People just want to enjoy their bottle and have fun and those notes make it confusing, whether they come from amateurs or professional critics.

I’m sure when John Gilman comes by NSG as a guy who wants to taste the wines and not as a wine critic, he’d be welcome to come in to Ray’s cave, taste the wines and write some notes for himself. He just can’t score them and publish them. What really is the point when Ray is in a position where his wines speak for themselves and don’t need a “great score from whoever”. They manage to sell out through word of mouth from the people who matter most; the consumers. That is the way the wine industry should be not rely on scores. Ray is helping move toward this.

Our opinions and recommendations as serious wine drinkers actually matter and the scores and long free form tasting notes don’t. If everyone on here tasted a wine and said it was absolutely amazing, but a critic scored it an 81, I would still try it. But if I asked if a wine was good and someone sent me a paragraph worth of descriptors talking about how it makes them feel as if they were rolling down a hill in Jura with bumble bees and flowers floating above them, bringing wafts of plum and sage into their nostrils, I would shake my head and tell them to chill out. If you really enjoy writing those kind of tasting notes, more power to you. But if you are the wine person in your social group and doing that, I’d hate to break it to you, but you are the reason why so many other people don’t drink wine.

35

^^^This. He may even be in a position where critics can do more damage than good with some mediocre ratings.

36

Merci!

37

How am I going to flip them if they have no scores??? [scratch.gif]

38

Anything involving dogs and critics here?

39

My notes after tasting the wines at the winery this past November:
Maison Ilan with Ray Walker – Thanks for spending time with us Ray!! We really liked your wines:
2010 Maison Ilan Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Monts-Luisants: 2yo barrels used. Pure fruits here – touch of reduction to start. Dark cherry with a touch of heme – medium length in the mouth. 91pts.

2010 Maison Ilan Morey St. Denis 1er Cru Les Chaffots: Bordered by Clos St. Denis? Darker in texture and fruits and seems more Chambolle in style – elegant and transparent in flavors and textures. 91+pts.

2010 Maison Ilan Charmes-Chambertin Aux Charmes Vieilles Vignes: Pretty and airy soft cherry fruit – I can get Gevrey here – elegant and pure. Liked this the best from the line-up – Nice! 93+pts.

2010 Maison Ilan Chambertin Vieilles Vignes: Next to Leroy’s vines :astonished:). Smoke and lighter cherry here – Chambertin personality in a silk glove. 93pts.

I’m no expert - but - you should try the wines if you can whenever bottles show up or friends open one. I can see these wines adding weight and layers with time - only time will tell!

40

Watch out Jonathon, Ray will take those points down!