Question to the property rights lawyers out there: If we write a tasting note on Cellartracker, who does that belong to?
Scroll up for the CT terms which are quoted earlier in the thread. You grant CT a license, but the content is also yours as well. And while my license is perpetual, I have always honored requests if a user does want to remove their data. http://www.wineberserkers.com/viewtopic.php?p=513817#p513817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eric, I can’t believe how ballsy this guy is. Truly astounding!!!
I have to wonder how many other sites is he scraping information from illegally.
If he scrapes from here, my imaginary attorney is NOT going to be happy!
A non-exclusive license right? What does that mean with respect to third parties making use of the notes? Are the notes copyrighted?
Thanks to all for the great comments (and for everyone that read the post). Also thank you to everyone banding together for what is right. As the quote says “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” (Edmund Burke)
I find the behavior against Eric, CellarTracker, and all the CT users reprehensible. I also find the behavior against wineries equally deceptive (both in his hyperbole of traffic - even in his “response”, and his use of their data without disclosing his true intentions).
I look forward to seeing more conversations about this and hope that he and Snooth apologize to Eric, all of the CT users, and all the wineries that they have wronged through their activity. I also hope that they reward CellarTracker with more than just an apology.
On every page:
© 2003-11 CellarTracker! LLC. All rights reserved. “CellarTracker!” is a trademark of CellarTracker! LLC. No part of this website may be used, reproduced or distributed without the prior written permission of CellarTracker! LLC.
Eric, do yourself a favor, and limit what you state about this matter here, in case it goes further, you do not want to state anything that could be used against you.
This is just offensive.
I hope they take it down quick, and that you make them prove that they did.
Yes.
I understand and discussed this topic with my attorney. I won’t be saying much more.
Release the hounds!! ![[berserker.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/8/8600bbd4810d342b8fbd4ffb62b4f0026275fd37.gif "berserker"){kind=small}
Generally speaking, authors own the copyrights in their works from the moment the work is created, subject to whatever rights the author grants to someone else such as via TOS. (Copyright is automatic–it’s not necessary to file anything to claim the right, though registration of copyright affects an author’s ability to sue and collect damages.)
A copyright holder can license rights to others, either exclusively or non-exclusively. Depending on the license terms, a licensee could be allowed to further grant licenses to others (sublicensing). As a general rule, and leaving aside complicated stuff like “fair use” doctrine, if you want to copy/distribute a work and are not the author, you need a license, either from the author or from a licensee who’s authorized to sublicense. Without a license, your use may be infringing.
Disclaimer: I’m not a copyright lawyer and this is not legal advice, just some random facts that could be found anywhere on the interwebz.
10/4 on that. Annoying presence on google searches. Always seemed like a worthless site to me. Never got past first page as it made no sense to me.
This story is definitely gaining strength right now… I wouldn’t want to be associated with Snooth in any way, shape or form right now.
Jancis Robinson on Twitter this morning:
Sterling work by @vintank on what looks like scraping of CellarTracker data > http://bit.ly/gkeZla> " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; Shocking stuff
and
Also see > http://j.mp/dW0PsT> " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; from @vintank on the reality of Snooth.com Fascinating
(she might not be reaching 12 million people, but her 55k followers should be enough)
Also Vinternet (a French communication agency who oragnizes events re: wine and Web 2.0, etc.)
"Snooth scraping data from CellarTracker? > http://bit.ly/gkeZla> " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;” @pmabray dévoile le secret de polichinelle… via @ph_hugon
(note: they interestingly use the term “secret de polichinelle” which means “open secret”)
I remember the same issue came up several years ago, as documented on CT’s forum, from 2007 (Eric intimated about this, above):
snooth.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Eric, Nov. 26, 2007]: Snooth at one point was crawling CellarTracker (far more extensively than I had intended), grabbing most of my content, never once linking back corrrectly. They have turned that off but now have lots of snippets of data from this site intermingled in their “tags” although they claim not. Frankly, in 18 years of working in technology, this was the single sleaziest, nastiest interaction I have ever had. I am still debating whether to pursue legal action. (Hi Philip, I hope you are reading this.)
So in short, I would like to forget about Snooth forever and wish them little success. That is in strong contrast to my desire to partner with pretty much any other reputable player in the industry.
I remember I was pretty shocked by this at the time.
I’m seeing data from some of my notes made well after 2007 which indicate that they are still grabbing tags from CT.
This is sleazy in the extreme. Epically sleazy as it were.
From adversity comes opportunity … frankly, I have never understood why there was no licensing of the CT Db (like Winebid) to Snooth. CT already freely shares Tasting note Data with eBob, Facebook and this site … after all Eric had gone through at eBob it is equally strange he would react the same way when confronted with a mildly overlapping competitor.
Snooth is very clearly oriented to the Wine 101 crowd whom a percentage of will outgrow the site and need CT … natural progression. I get that most users of this site will see little value in Snooth beside Greg’s excellent articles (also oriented to the the new to wine seeking knowledge crowd). When Snooth grows up they are looking to compete with Wine-Searcher and the like not CT.
It never pays to react business situation with emotions and lawyers. If one looks at this situation without emotion all they should see is an increased licensing fee and better terms for revenue sharing for CT. Or they can make a bunch of lawyers rich chasing imaginary damages and waste the most important resource they possess … time.
JM2C … flame away.
I have no business affiliation with Snooth only that I consider Greg dal Piaz a good friend.
David, your post is full of fail as far as I can tell, but I’ll let Eric and others who are more knowledgeable about Cellar Tracker respond with specifics. But the one thing I’ll say is that stealing (mining, scraping . . . choose your own term) copyrighted material is not the same as having it shared with you.