Filtering wines in the decanting process

[Mike_During]

Never had the need to filter. I actually prefer to pull the wines out of the cellar, carefully put in cradle without turning, use a good pouring device. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bz_pbZnnKBD9bVd5OUI4SUtXUXc/view?usp=sharing
The bulb on this works well.

Cheers Mike

[Paul_Jaouen]

Andy, that was a great idea to do a blind test. Mike, I like your method as well but I don’t see it done that often.

[Anton_D]

@andy velebil

Some friends and I, along with a couple prominent Port producers, did an experiment to test the issue of using unbleached cheesecloth, unbleached coffee filters, and free-hand. We used one older Vintage Port Magnum for the test. The same shape decanters, prepared the same way, were used so there would be no difference in how the decanters were prepared or how much air the wine may have gotten from using different sized decanters.

We decanted part of it freehand. Second was cheesecloth, third was through the coffee paper. The decanters were labeled 1/2/3 and served single blind by wait staff so no one knew what order they were served in.

The vast majority overwhelming preferred the free-hand pour. A close second behind was decanting through the unbleached cheesecloth. A very distant third was through the coffee paper.

It was agreed by most that the coffee paper stripped the wine of the fruit and gave it an sharp alcoholic streak.

The results of our test showed free-hand is best. When that is not practical then unbleached cheesecloth was the second best method to use. Avoid coffee filters at all cost.

Fascinating!

So, gnoshing on a used coffee filter should provide a prodigiously fruit laden experience!

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

@andy velebil

Some friends and I, along with a couple prominent Port producers, did an experiment to test the issue of using unbleached cheesecloth, unbleached coffee filters, and free-hand. We used one older Vintage Port Magnum for the test. The same shape decanters, prepared the same way, were used so there would be no difference in how the decanters were prepared or how much air the wine may have gotten from using different sized decanters.

We decanted part of it freehand. Second was cheesecloth, third was through the coffee paper. The decanters were labeled 1/2/3 and served single blind by wait staff so no one knew what order they were served in.

The vast majority overwhelming preferred the free-hand pour. A close second behind was decanting through the unbleached cheesecloth. A very distant third was through the coffee paper.

It was agreed by most that the coffee paper stripped the wine of the fruit and gave it an sharp alcoholic streak.

The results of our test showed free-hand is best. When that is not practical then unbleached cheesecloth was the second best method to use. Avoid coffee filters at all cost.

I am not at all surprised by the results; they are what I would expect.

But, the real issue is getting the crud/sediment out of the wine so the wine isn’t marred by the precipitated tannins. Though I always free hand pour first…until I start to see sediment flowing, some of that is microscopic, so the trick is when to start a filtration. It’s that stuff, not the big chunks of grape skin that pollute, IMO.

I’ve tried many things over the years, recognizing that some filtration is necessary unless one wants to sacrifice a hefty portion of the bottle. So, it also depends on what’s in the glass evenually. (If the sediment doesn’t get in because you’ve left it in the bottle the wine will be best, but some will be wasted.

As far as which filtration is best, in my experience, cheesecloth does very little for the offending, fine particulate in most Burgundy, Bordeaux (no idea on ports). The gold filters are too porous to get that stuff out (though I only use gold filters with my Technivorm or Newco coffee makers for the same reason.) I’ve used a yoghurt strainer, and other strainers, includind some I bought in Burgundy over the years. But, after all this experimenting, about 20 years ago, I decided that free pour plus unbleached coffee filters provide the best chance to have a good wine experience. (And, if I haven’t had time to let a bottle stand to let sediment settle…or…the sediment just won’t…the best method to get rid of the offending sediment, IMO, with any confidence is the coffee filter. The others won’t do the job…and free pouring isn’t an option.

Like many things, decanting is a compromise/tug of war between conflicting goals when considering both filtering and aeration.

[Mike_During]

I think the trick is not to have the wine standing to settle sediment. It is much better having it horizontal or close to horizontal, much less impact on disturbing the sediment when decanting as the bottle is going to end up being horizontal at the critical point, so if it is already in that position there is much less movement of the sediment.

[Anton_D]

@Mike During

I think the trick is not to have the wine standing to settle sediment. It is much better having it horizontal or close to horizontal, much less impact on disturbing the sediment when decanting as the bottle is going to end up being horizontal at the critical point, so if it is already in that position there is much less movement of the sediment.

I like that, but it makes opening the wine a little more problematic.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

“Problematic”?

[Mike_During]

@Anton D

@Mike During

I think the trick is not to have the wine standing to settle sediment. It is much better having it horizontal or close to horizontal, much less impact on disturbing the sediment when decanting as the bottle is going to end up being horizontal at the critical point, so if it is already in that position there is much less movement of the sediment.

I like that, but it makes opening the wine a little more problematic.

Open it in the cradle, just need a firm grip on the bottle so it does not turn.

[Stuart_BeauneHead_Niemtzow]

Or lay down on the ground (or table) with the bottle…have someone hold the bottle’s bottom…while you try to insert a corkscrew without shaking the bottle…or the guy holding onto the other end. And…if it’s on a table, hope the table doesn’t collapse from the weight of the two bodies.

[Dav1dZ]

@Mike During

I think the trick is not to have the wine standing to settle sediment. It is much better having it horizontal or close to horizontal, much less impact on disturbing the sediment when decanting as the bottle is going to end up being horizontal at the critical point, so if it is already in that position there is much less movement of the sediment.

That’s not how it works - the kind of sediments that take weeks to settle barely settle at all (unless they flocculate as a result of changing chemistry of the wine). They form a thin layer of super-fines that will resuspend instantly if you so much as look at them funny. The only way to get those to stay out of suspension is to centrifuge.

[Mike_During]

David, are you suggesting we use a centrifuge ?

[Dav1dZ]

@Mike During

David, are you suggesting we use a centrifuge ?

No - I’m suggesting that if your theory is that something in the wine that takes more than a few days to settle needs to be left behind when you decant/pour, then pouring it with the care of a man holding the baby jesus isn’t going to make a difference. Colloids gonna collid.

[Mike_During]

David, I am sure you are right, but I am happy with a clear and bright wine and that is what results. About 50ml is discarded and used to see if there is any obvious flaw, more often than not this is cloudy, even if the heavy sediment does not get that far.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Bill Klapp

Just for the sake of argument, Oliver (and you know that I live for the sake of argument), how does the use of V60 pour-over by “some extreme wine geeks” make that the gold standard of coffee-making? Far more people use Mr. Coffees, Keurig and even Chemex/Melitta, but I submit to you that that fact does not make those methods the gold standard, either. You know any top-flight coffee houses with V60 pour-over barristas? Or, shifting gears, knowing that you spend time here, ever try to buy a Chemex and filters in the Piemonte? (I haven’t, but searching for a French press for a friend gave me a run for my money a few years ago.) Lastly, please tell me that your V60 geeks can be found in Italy or some other locale where excellent coffee is the norm, not a fad, and not just Seattle or New York City. Of course (but conceding nothing), the real issue here is using a coffee filter on wine, not on coffee, there being a lot less at stake with coffee.

While a day of standing may do the trick on wines with little or no sediment or sediment which sheets, old Nebbiolo needs a hell of a lot more time than a day to have any chance at all of avoiding its bitter, nasty sediment. Not filtering is a legitimate choice, of course, but a week to, say, oh, six months makes a lot more sense for standing time. I doubt that I own many bottles for which a day would do anything at all at this point…

Just out of curiosity, have you ever conceded a point?

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

Yes, but not often when I am right. I am not sure why a guy who says he never filters wine bothers to try and make a case for pour-over coffee filtration on a wine board! Of course, I can level the same charge against my own posts, I suppose, since the case against using coffee filters on wine is damning on its face without engaging in state-of-the-art coffee-making discourse.

Yaacov, some serious coffee drinkers use filters. Point conceded. Worldwide, many more do not. Read Andy’s post, and understand that few serious wine drinkers use coffee filters on wine. Your results may be satisfactory to you, but they are not what they could be absent the coffee filter. I am not sure why you would need scientific proof of something so obvious,mbut so be it.

I have to abandon this topic now, Oliver. I am finishing up O’Keefe’s Barolo and Barbaresco book today, and will be spending my free time working on my review of it, which I am sure that you are eagerly awaiting!

[ybarselah]

@Bill Klapp

Yes, but not often when I am right. I am not sure why a guy who says he never filters wine bothers to try and make a case for pour-over coffee filtration on a wine board! Of course, I can level the same charge against my own posts, I suppose, since the case against using coffee filters on wine is damning on its face without engaging in state-of-the-art coffee-making discourse.

Yaacov, some serious coffee drinkers use filters. Point conceded. Worldwide, many more do not. Read Andy’s post, and understand that few serious wine drinkers use coffee filters on wine. Your results may be satisfactory to you, but they are not what they could be absent the coffee filter. I am not sure why you would need scientific proof of something so obvious,mbut so be it.

I have to abandon this topic now, Oliver. I am finishing up O’Keefe’s Barolo and Barbaresco book today, and will be spending my free time working on my review of it, which I am sure that you are eagerly awaiting!

I require scientific proof because the alternative is typically blind faith to notions of tradition or what have you. This reminds me of the truffle argument which wasn’t really settled until my good friend Jeremy actually gave a good explanation of volatile chemicals in the truffle.

Here too, the idea of filtering is fine for most - people use mesh and there’s a few folks that have mentioned that a cheesecloth is okay. So filtering isn’t the issue. The issue is the size of the pores. I’ve mentioned that conventional coffee filters are roughly 20 microns - so someone with wine knowledge would have to show that pore size is too small to allow for whatever you want to remain in the wine to remain after pouring.

As for your coffee tangent, you are simply out of your element and totally misinformed. The idea that using a filter of some sort is somehow “lesser” is absolute nonsense.

[Kevin_Kitagawa]

@ybarselah

I require scientific proof because the alternative is typically blind faith to notions of tradition or what have you. This reminds me of the truffle argument which wasn’t really settled until my good friend Jeremy actually gave a good explanation of volatile chemicals in the truffle.

Here too, the idea of filtering is fine for most - people use mesh and there’s a few folks that have mentioned that a cheesecloth is okay. So filtering isn’t the issue. The issue is the size of the pores. I’ve mentioned that conventional coffee filters are roughly 20 microns - so someone with wine knowledge would have to show that pore size is too small to allow for whatever you want to remain in the wine to remain after pouring.

You don’t require scientific proof…why not just try it yourself? There is an obvious pore size difference and it is obvious one will filter out more than the other, why not try different solutions and see which works best for you? The results are subjective so you need to see what you think is best…

You can even make it more granular as they sell things like Nylon Nut Milk Bags which can be used over and over, be cleaned easily and are food grade…and you can buy ones with smaller and larger pores…

I’m on the no coffee filter side as far as filtering wine…

[Bill_Klapp_deactivated]

I am not sure that your bald assertions that I am out of my element and totally misinformed, without more, carry the day, Yaacov, and in fact, I am a lifelong student of fine coffee who has changed his method of brewing perhaps 15-20 times over the years. (I must concede that I prefer pour-over coffee to authentic Turkish coffee, which could use a nice 20-micron paper coffee filter.) What I say to you is that the best coffee that I have ever had did not come from a device using a paper filter. You may not believe that a paper filter strips wine of any of the wine’s desirable characteristics, but if, indeed, it does, then it stands to reason that the filter might well do exactly the same thing to coffee, which is but a large handful of purposefully created sediment of a sort, eh? On the other hand, for better or for worse, depending upon your taste preferences, coffee brewed in a metal or nylon mesh filter, or with no filtering at all, has little or no surface to adhere to on its way to cup or carafe, and, thus, one experiences the coffee in its purest manifestation. Could metal or nylon mesh flavor the coffee? I suppose so, especially if not kept clean, washed with a detergent which sticks to the filter or the like. There is always something with the potential to get in the way, I suppose.

The question for you is not simply microns…sediment comes in all shapes and sizes. The question is whether coffee filters alter the taste of the wine or strip it of essential flavor or aroma components, and whether the filter traps a sufficient amount of wine as to make it wasteful. You could be a long time waiting for scientific proof of a straightforward, empirically ascertainable phenomenon. It is surely your wine, and you are free to do as you like with it. However, I would have to wonder why you would not be impressed with Andy’s test above…

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Bill Klapp

… I am not sure why a guy who says he never filters wine bothers to try and make a case for pour-over coffee filtration on a wine board!

It works for coffee, and doesn’t work for wine.

Blue Bottle, a high-priest coffee company here, describes pour-over as ‘Arguably the simplest and cleanest way to draw out a coffee’s best qualities, the pour-over method is elegant without being prohibitively difficult.’ But perhaps you know more about coffee than they do? Why certainly you do, what a silly question.

[ybarselah]

@Bill Klapp

I am not sure that your bald assertions that I am out of my element and totally misinformed, without more, carry the day, Yaacov, and in fact, I am a lifelong student of fine coffee who has changed his method of brewing perhaps 15-20 times over the years. (I must concede that I prefer pour-over coffee to authentic Turkish coffee, which could use a nice 20-micron paper coffee filter.) What I say to you is that the best coffee that I have ever had did not come from a device using a paper filter. You may not believe that a paper filter strips wine of any of the wine’s desirable characteristics, but if, indeed, it does, then it stands to reason that the filter might well do exactly the same thing to coffee, which is but a large handful of purposefully created sediment of a sort, eh? On the other hand, for better or for worse, depending upon your taste preferences, coffee brewed in a metal or nylon mesh filter, or with no filtering at all, has little or no surface to adhere to on its way to cup or carafe, and, thus, one experiences the coffee in its purest manifestation. Could metal or nylon mesh flavor the coffee? I suppose so, especially if not kept clean, washed with a detergent which sticks to the filter or the like. There is always something with the potential to get in the way, I suppose.

The question for you is not simply microns…sediment comes in all shapes and sizes. The question is whether coffee filters alter the taste of the wine or strip it of essential flavor or aroma components, and whether the filter traps a sufficient amount of wine as to make it wasteful. You could be a long time waiting for scientific proof of a straightforward, empirically ascertainable phenomenon. It is surely your wine, and you are free to do as you like with it. However, I would have to wonder why you would not be impressed with Andy’s test above…

You are now backpedaling and re-creating your argument. Perhaps you originally misspoke, but with 3 follow up posts, that’s not likely. I responded to your very simple assertion which is, patently, false. That you are now refining and revising that assertion is not surprising, but is somewhat out of character for you - basically, I expect more.

As for using coffee filters for wine, I never specifically argued that paper was better/worse. As indicated, there are many types of filters, materials, etc. and even with the paper world, there are variations. And yes, we agree, that it’s not just microns, that’s why I want to know what - if anything - could a coffee filter remove from the wine. I’m generally interested. As for wasteful, that’s not an issue in my experience - I’ve used mesh and paper and both result in insignificant amounts of wine lost.

Andy’s test above is pretty cool - I’d like to recreate it myself. Except for the port part, of course.