Dry Farming

[David_Bu3ker]

@Todd Hamina

Here’s an exercise we can do together: Let’s remember this thread, watch if the drought in California continues, see if vineyards run out of water, find out how many can survive without water and see which ones die.

Then we can collectively say wrong spot, or right spot. I think it seems simple enough, who’s in?

Never mind how the wines taste of course. This is purely an academic exercise to prove a point??

[Stewart_Johnson]

The least favored parts of my vineyard are dry farmed. In my case, the ability to dry farm is just indicative of greater depth/water holding capacity of the soil on flatter ground. Those areas are too vigorous for pinot crop loads and are getting grafted over to whites that I’m more comfortable cropping at a higher level. Dry farming those areas is better than irrigating them, of course, but it’s not as good as growing on the thinner soils of the hillside that require some irrigation.

[Todd_Hamina]

@David M. Bueker

@Todd Hamina

Here’s an exercise we can do together: Let’s remember this thread, watch if the drought in California continues, see if vineyards run out of water, find out how many can survive without water and see which ones die.

Then we can collectively say wrong spot, or right spot. I think it seems simple enough, who’s in?

Never mind how the wines taste of course. This is purely an academic exercise to prove a point??

The point is sustainability.

Let me ask you what the best irrigated vineyard is in any part of the world?

I’ll wager that you could rattle of a few dozen dry farmed vineyards before you made it to ten drip irrigated ones.

One bottle of my wine. On your honor, in or out?

[David_Bu3ker]

Frankly not interested as I have found your tone in this whole thread distasteful enough that I don’t want to try your wine.

[Todd_Hamina]

I’m sorry you feel that way.

[Taylor_Broussard]

Well let’s be fair here too. It’s not just about variety, clonal selection or rootstock. The planting density is a primary reason many in places like Napa Valley can’t dry farm. They’re hanging very low pounds per plant but still pulling in 4-5+ tons per acre. So figure the density of planting needed for that to occur. Irrigation is absolutely critical to producing that yield per acre.

The whole economics of the region are so out of balance that I’m not sure that any new properties could feasibly stay in the black financially without the yield irrigation allows. But that’s the price being paid for the level of concentration producers want per plant, with the quantity of fruit needed to pay the bills.

In principle though, I personally believe that dry-farming is the way to go. While not necessarily proven, I still think it’s the best route long term for the quality of wine and sustainability of the site. (which again, feeds back into the quality of the wines). Shallow root systems with a tap that can be turned off or on depending on what the vineyard manager wants to accomplish sort of runs contrary to the concept of terroir and site-specific wines.

We can argue the degree of how much this impacts the site-specific nature of wines and I’m sure there’s many examples where we can make dry farming seem overly dogmatic, but taken to its logical extent it does ring true. Absent some type of romance, philosophical approach (terroir) or other principle it’s hard to make the case that this is an inherently good thing, but people do want different things out of wine both as producers and consumers.

[Oliver_McCrum]

@Todd Hamina

@David M. Bueker

@Todd Hamina

Here’s an exercise we can do together: Let’s remember this thread, watch if the drought in California continues, see if vineyards run out of water, find out how many can survive without water and see which ones die.

Then we can collectively say wrong spot, or right spot. I think it seems simple enough, who’s in?

Never mind how the wines taste of course. This is purely an academic exercise to prove a point??

The point is sustainability.

Let me ask you what the best irrigated vineyard is in any part of the world?

I’ll wager that you could rattle of a few dozen dry farmed vineyards before you made it to ten drip irrigated ones.

One bottle of my wine. On your honor, in or out?

Todd,

the classic growing areas in Europe mostly have summer rainfall, which makes irrigation unnecessary. There are a few areas in Italy (my area) that are irrigated due to very fast-draining soils, but it’s very unusual.

[Chris_Seiber]

@David M. Bueker

Frankly not interested as I have found your tone in this whole thread distasteful enough that I don’t want to try your wine.

I feel the same. Excluding Todd’s “I’m from a rainy, wet region so I conveniently claim that anyone from other regions who has to irrigate their vineyard sucks” contributions, there have been some really thoughtful comments in this thread, and from people making actual tough choices about their vineyards and livelihoods. Thanks to Peter, Merrill, Morgan and others. I hope the good part of the discussion can continue.

[NickC]

@David M. Bueker

Frankly not interested as I have found your tone in this whole thread distasteful enough that I don’t want to try your wine.

+1

[Merrill_Lindquist]

Hi folks…I am still planning to continue this discussion, but have some commitments that need to take precedence. Just didn’t want you to think I bailed on it. I’ll join back later today…

[Leon_Markham]

I think that irrigation is pretty much banned for wine in Europe. I seem to recall that some regions of Portugal and Spain have been given special dispensation in particularly dry years but in general - you can only grow vines where vines can grow…

[TomHill]

@Merrill Lindquist

Hi folks…I am still planning to continue this discussion, but have some commitments that need to take precedence. Just didn’t want you to think I bailed on it. I’ll join back later today…

Gasp, Merrill…like you have a real life…outside of hanging out on WB?? Shocking…it is!!!
Tom

[John_Morris]

@Leon Markham

I think that irrigation is pretty much banned for wine in Europe. I seem to recall that some regions of Portugal and Spain have been given special dispensation in particularly dry years but in general - you can only grow vines where vines can grow…

Most of Portugal isn’t that arid, as it’s on the Atlantic.

[Alan_Rath]

Like pretty much anything, putting an absolute stake in the ground is a sign that a belief system is probably a bit too rigid.

[Chris_Seiber]

@Leon Markham

I think that irrigation is pretty much banned for wine in Europe. I seem to recall that some regions of Portugal and Spain have been given special dispensation in particularly dry years but in general - you can only grow vines where vines can grow…

Weren’t Bordeaux vineyards allowed to irrigate in 2003?

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, what a funny discussion this would be in the context of any other agricultural product besides vinifera grapes. Does anyone think you should only grow tomatoes, oranges or avocados in places where they can thrive with zero irrigation?

[Eric_Lundblad]

@Chris Seiber

@David M. Bueker

Frankly not interested as I have found your tone in this whole thread distasteful enough that I don’t want to try your wine.

I feel the same. Excluding Todd’s “I’m from a rainy, wet region so I conveniently claim that anyone from other regions who has to irrigate their vineyard sucks” contributions, there have been some really thoughtful comments in this thread, and from people making actual tough choices about their vineyards and livelihoods. Thanks to Peter, Merrill, Morgan and others. I hope the good part of the discussion can continue.

+! (I typed this by mistake, intending +1…I like +! better )

[Dav1dZ]

@John Morris

@Leon Markham

I think that irrigation is pretty much banned for wine in Europe. I seem to recall that some regions of Portugal and Spain have been given special dispensation in particularly dry years but in general - you can only grow vines where vines can grow…

Most of Portugal isn’t that arid, as it’s on the Atlantic.

It’s not aridity per se, its growing season rainfall. Many of the great winegrowing regions of Europe are sort of on the border b/w Mediterranean and Ocean climate zones. So they get rain from June-October; not as much as in the winter, but enough.

See, e.g., Bordeaux (Oceanic climate with some attributes of warm summer Mediterranean); Dijon (Oceanic with elements of Humid Continental); Rioja (on the border of a bunch of different climates but closest to a mix of Oceanic and Warm Summer Mediterranean)

[Joe_Webb]

@Craig G

@Todd Hamina

For some reason Old World, blue chip wines have been dry farmed for a long, long time.

Maybe because it rains in the summer there?

I don’t have any problem if someone chooses to fill their cellar with only dry-farmed wines, but don’t expect most of us to care.

Most areas in europe have some measureable rainfall in every month. Much easier to dry farm in that situation, however this is also one of the main reasons quality and quantity vary so much from vintage to vintage. Rain during bloom or near harvest can have devastating consequences on quality and quantity. Not to mention the hail Burgundy has endured the last 3 years.

We catch rain water during the winter rainy months and redistribute it in the summer dry months is that a form of dry farming? Storing a resource when its abundant for use when that resource is not abundant seems very sustainable to me. I do the same thing when I preserve and can my tomatoes. I would love to have fresh off the vine maters but for a month I have abundance that I preserve and store for use later.

We average 40" of rain and the last 3 years only got 20" though we were able to still fill the pond for frost protection and irrigation needs. Mainly due to 5-7" events over a day or 2 that created a lot of surface water run off. Our property borders anderson creek and the creek once ran thru the property so we have lots of rock and sand and very good drainage though not a lot of water holding capacity.

[Casey_Hartlip]

Seems pretty rare to have so much passion over a farming technique. Most folks around here get all worked up over how they feel about the WINE.

I have dry farmed grapes over the years and do so now. IMHO you must have Hollywood soils to pull it off outside of Europe. They must be deep and fertile with the right amount of clay that hold moisture.

The fields at Eaglepoint that were dry farmed were on St George rootstock and the soils were pretty awesome for a mountain site. My current gig has about 15 acres of Pinot on St George that was planted in the mid 70’s. The field is frost protected (sprinkler system) but has no drip. Once again, these are some of the best soils I’ve seen in Anderson Valley. The fact that we haven’t replanted proves these fields are still worthy.

I’ve been around lots of dry farmed plantings over the years. In general terms I’d say that about 85% of those plantings looked to me like the vines would have made better wines had they had a couple of small drinks in August. I’ve seen many fields ‘hit the wall’ around then. So many times the final few weeks of the ripening curve are too steep. Many times you end up with huge ph spikes as the vines are near collapse.

I went to a UC extension vineyard in Oakville many years ago on a canopy management seminar. Big old quad plantings of Cabernet. We were there in late July early August. Once again a few other growers and I thought the vines looked a bit tuckered out. Once again just an observation from some hillbilly farmers taking a class.

I think over the past 25 years we’ve all learned a lot about irrigation and the need of grapevines. Do people use too much water? Sure. Are we making better decisions regarding the use of water and vine health/wine quality? I sure think so.

All of this talk about a site being the right site if it can produce without irrigation is kind of bold.

[David_Bu3ker]

I still want to know if it’s ok the water my tomato plants.