I’m certain Gerhard and Jay have more experience than I do, but Corton, taken as a whole, is a big mess of a vineyard, in any event, and quality reputedly varies considerably from lieu-dit to lieu-dit. Bressands and Clos du Roi have the best reputations; Pougets is among the other well-regarded sections, and Jadot’s Pougets is a good example you can sometimes find at reasonable pricing. The wines are reputed to take much more time than other grand crus to come into their own.
Whether a good Corton Bressands is better than a good Eschezeaux is up to you, in the end; Meadows has spoken very highly about old Corton. Not many Burgundies are widely thought to be in the same class as Musigny.
Kevin - You are pretty much right on with your comments. It is unfortunate, but very true. The wines are somewhat to wildly overpriced. And far too unreliable. You can limit the “damage” by having a focused buying strategy. And you will find the occasional great bottle that keeps you looking for more. But overpriced and underwined is much more the norm.
Nathan, it’s your delivery that infuriates (/confuses) people more often than your message. The fact that you constantly make statements that are either untrue or at least debatable as if they were gospel truth, typically paired with some fanatical ramblings about economic matters is what I find troubling, personally. For instance, your point #2 is clearly contested by several in this thread.
Anecdotes are of little probative effect as to the overall value offered in a region, but here are a couple anyway. I recently opened a bottle of 2009 Hudelot Noellat Bourgone purchased from PC for $12. That’s cheap. It was great. Ripe year favored the regional wine, caught it in a good window. I appreciated its pure fruit, its direct acidity and its slight sous-bois interest. It did more for me than domestic pinot typically has at many times the price. I bought a case of the 2008 from them as well, for $10 per, and it was pleasant but never reached the level the 2009 did. Maybe it would have been better in time but mine are all gone unfortunately.
Also from PC, some mixed Pavelot 1ers at $25 from (IIRC 2008) were just excellent.
I do agree with Gary (though we have argued about this in the past) that targeted buying is key. Random buying in burgundy is a bad idea I think.
It seems like it amounts to “only buy wines that you know are good (without having tasted them, of course) from producers that you know are good and who have a style you like (unless you don’t know who those are).”
Seems a bit more difficult than it looks on the surface. Pointers?
Kevin, thanks for posting and I agree with you. I rarely find the value in burgundy that I do from producers in Oregon and Cali. Give me a Matello Lazurus or Hommage all day long for $20-25.
j/k, but really that is what I’d do. Search here for what the serious burg drinkers like and where they shop. Then talk to a vendor at those stores. There are tons of lists of favorite producers around here. Most of the advice is good. Just buying a bottle randomly is, IMO, a bad idea for most regions, but particularly for burgundy.
While I appreciate the sentiment that wine buying for the cellar should be targeted and researched, keep in mind this wasn’t a planned purchase. I’m traveling and had a few minutes free, so I stopped in a local shop. Just like going to dinner and scanning a wine list, I needed to make a quick educated guess.
Here is what I did: I checked CT, which has positive reviews from as recently as January (none of which remotely match what I found in my bottle). I checked professional reviews for recommended drinking windows (not the scores). Meadows and Wine Spectator both claim 2014+, and others say 2015+. I asked the only person in the store, who said “I don’t know, but I sold one recently and the customer said she liked it.”
That really ought to be a reasonable way of making an on-the-fly purchase.
Even if I had time to post here a detailed list of everything available (none of which was much older, and nearly all of which was more expensive), what would that have accomplished? Even within this thread views differ widely. Read above—apparently there isn’t even consensus on whether Michel Gros is a good producer.
When spending $50, it shouldn’t be so damn hard to find a good bottle of wine. What I’m taking away from this thread is that there are surely a few good burgs in that price range, but you need a MW and a deliberative process equivalent to a United Nations meeting in order to find them.
Yes - obviously there are some personal reservations (maybe because of his abandoning of adding sugar, using a concentrator instead …)
However - everything from Michael (from 1985 to 2012) was at least good, very good, outstanding, sometimes great … (even the Hautes Cotes, even the 2004s were ok) … one has only to know when to open …
Gerhard, have you actually tasted this particular wine? If so please describe what specific qualities of the wine give you confidence that it’s quality will match its price in the future. Thanks.
Kevin, most of us burg lovers would try to avoid buying and drinking a 5 year old red burg unless there was a pressing need (eg you needed to decide whether to buy more of a given wine). I find 5-7 years is the nadir in many significant vintages. For me it’s a little analogous to, but probably worse than, sampling red Bordeaux from serious vintages at 6-7 years of age. Nebbiolo, despite its reputation for being tannic, etc, for me is much easier to drink/assess during this same phase (I wouldn’t recommend it, but its easier to enjoy.)
I also have a hell of a time assessing a closed burg in this phase, and sometimes I just have to go off of what I know about the winery and the vintage to decide whether I want the wine or not. Mostly I just try to avoid getting in the situation of assessing a wine during this phase.
If you are really serious about wanting a good burg experience, you’ve gotten some good advice. Best to sample older wines with friends that have them, but barring that, look at new release from good vintages (2012). Right now pretty expensive, but you could certainly try Pavelot, or any number of good producers’ Bourgognes (Chevillon is one that comes to mind). I’m sort of a cheap bastard, but I continue to find wines that I enjoy and that are excellent burgs for under 50$.
Haven’t many people on this board said that the 09’s did not close down? I remember reading it here several times and thinking that I should check it out myself.
For what is worth, a Montille Volnay Champans (from half) was drinking very well recently.
Despite the title of this thread, I don’t think there is much contrarian about this experience. Robert Parker has been saying the same thing for 20 years as have many others, so your in good company. In fact, before this board existed a thread like this would pop up every so often on the Parker board, and then it would devolve into one of us saying that Parker didn’t understand burgundy, then getting kicked off, until the rest of is were exited en masse. But this is a fairly common viewpoint. It’s different than my personal experience and that of many others, but it’s not uncommon. Id ignore the advice to seek out different producers and wait longer as this probably isn’t your style of wine and it is expensive and time consuming to work through and some people just won’t like it. It sounds like you’re one of them. That is cool. I’d only mention 2 things. The first is that there is a well-trodden path of loving wine for years and years and suddenly getting bit by the burgundy bug. You never know where wine will lead you and when your past preferences will give way to something new. Second, a lot of this thread sounds like value and low price are the same. I think of value as the relationship between quality and price. Something can be expensive and still provide good value. I think burgundy has lost a lot of value at the low end and the very high range over the past few years. I think a lot of value remains in between. And, if you include Beaujolais cru in your definition of burgindy, then things at the lower end start to look pretty good.
The obvious potential setback in pursuing this with Burgundy nowadays is, outside of having generous friends, one needs a small fortune with which to even sample a broad range of quality producers. Same also now applies to premium Bordeaux & Napa, main difference is there’s less of a learning curve involved, imho.
I´ve not tasted the Chambolle 2009, but all Vosnes and the Clos Vougeot 2009 by Michel Gros, as well as all vintages from 1988 to 2012, including many vintages of his Chambolle - many from cask, and from bottle in different stages of evolution.
If this particular bottle of yours was sound (meaning not flawed by shipping/storage) then it was simply in a closed ungiving stage - which is not atypical for the vintage now.
2009 is a very successful vintage at Domaine Michel Gros - there is no doubt that the wines (incl. the Chambolle-Musigny Village … which comes to a major part from a vineyard adjacent to GC Musigny) will be very expressive and enjoyable in due time … best maybe 2021 to 2029+
The wines are concentrated with very ripe sweet tannins, a sound acidity which was almost hidden behind the sweet fruit in cask, fine balance throughout - and a long track record for very positive evolution …
(if one doesn´t like the style - well … a personal problem, but IMHO it´s excellent quality)
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They don’t call it a minefield for nothing…