Your most preferred 'super second' Bordeaux

WINE TALK
21

A bit surprised nobody else has Montrose as their favorite 2nd Growth.

Classic, long-lived, large structure, and perhaps what distinguishes it in many years over its competitiors, sometimes exhibits a gamey, animalistic funkiness. Gruard Larose and Talbot are favorites of mine as well precisely because of that funkiness, esepcially the wines from the 1980s vintages. I have heard some folks attribute these notes to unclean cellars, bretty, etc., but regardless, it’s a flavor profile I like. I have to admit that I have not had a Montrose from anything younger than 2004, so cannot comment on the current wine, but given the history of this estate, would be surprised if anything has changed despite all the lofty scores I’m seeing being bestowed upon it.

Montrose it is.

As a sad note, I have not bought any 2nd Growths since the 2005 vintage, and even the pricing on those hurt. I’m likely out of the market for these pricey Bordeaux that reasonably take 20 years to reach my preferred drinking window. I have selectively backfilled, but that market is drying up a bit too.

22

For me it is a really tough call. I narrowed my universe down to eight wines. In alphabetical order: Cos D’Estournel, Ducru Beaucaillou, Gruaud Larose, Leoville Barton, Leoville Lascases, Montrose, Pichon Baron and Pichon Lalande. Maybe that is a bit unfair on Rauzan Segla, which has been on a roll since 2010.

But of the original eight first to go would be Gruaud, a wine I love, and despite an incredible run between 1982 and 1988, it was patchy in the 1990s. Next to be crossed off would be Leoville-Barton, which is always a ‘go to’ estate for me but does not quite scale the heights of some of the others.

Next to be let go would be Cos D’Estournel, because I think it has moved over to the dark side recently, but was very strong in the 1980s and 1990s. Next to go is Pichon Lalande. Based on its performance between 1978 and 1989 it might even be the winner, but since 1990 it has been less consistent and less reliable than the Baron.

Now it gets really tough. In fourth place is Pichon-Baron, which really has raised its game under Christian Seely, but was also brilliant in 1988-1990. As I noted it is a little more consistent than Pichon Lalande these days, though I prefer the latter’s 2010. In third place is Montrose, which has been on a roll since 1989 and really hasn’t put a foot wrong. However Pichon Baron and Montrose are wines that i admire more than fall in love with.

Choosing between Ducru and Leoville-Lascases is really tough. In fact there is little to choose between them now. Ducru is my sentimental favourite, but Leoville-Lascases just edges it in the end because over time it has been more consistent. So my vote goes to Leoville-Lascases.

N.B. If Palmer is included in the mix it would certainly be in with a strong shout, and would be in the top three. Too tough to choose that’s why I left it out of the line up. Likewise La Mission, but in my opinion more than any other contender it is a de facto first growth. As noted earlier Cheval Blanc is universally recognised as a first growth equivalent.

23

Didn’t buy those. History is longer than a few years and there are a lot of good Ducrus.

24

Baron?? Really?? I guess our tastes in German wines are closer than with respect to Bordeaux or Pinot based wines.

25

Have you had Palmer?

1 Like
26

It’s amazing all the under performing Margaux estates that are Second Growths, yet Palmer is a Third Growth.

27

Mouton. [stirthepothal.gif]

28

Pichon Lalande. If someone else was paying, probably Palmer or LLC.

Thanks,
Ed

29

i see what you did there.

30

Rats, perfect answer!

31

Ok fair point.

THREAD DRIFT ALERT: So … what are the right bank “Firsts” that are not on the official “Premier Cru” List?

Nobody would argue: Cheval Blanc, Petrus
Probably would get there: Ausone, Lafleur
So these are seconds qualifiers: L’Eglise Clinet, La Conseillante, Trotonay, Angelus, Pavie, L’Evangile, La Mondotte, VCC, many more.

Sadly I’ve had so few of these that I’m not really qualified to have much of an opinion. Cheval is my splurge (and have loved the 78, 82, 85, 90), and am unlikely to soon open the more recent vintages that I have so pitifully few of.

32

Montrose and Pichon Lalande for reasons discussed above.

33

Ausone and Cheval Blanc are both 1er cru classe A (top tier St. Emilion). Perversely, so are Angelus and Pavie.

34

Angelus and Pavie now have equal status with Ausone and Cheval Blanc therefore they are first growth equivalents rather than super second equivalents.

How and why this happened and whether or not their promotion was deserved is an entirely different discussion.

So when it comes to the right bank that probably leaves you with estates like VCC, L’Evangile, La Conseillante, L’Eglise Clinet, Figeac, etc.

I suspect estates like Lafleur and Le Pin are above super second status.

35

Love me some St. Éstephe so Cos d’Estournel, Calon Ségur

36

I brought a '96 to an HDH auction a few months back. It’s great wine, but I think it’s poor QPR when compared to many sub $100 2nd growths.
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37

Pichon Lalande, a close second is Montrose.

38

My preferred: Ducru followed by Montrose.

La Mission is the best wine.

39

Montrose, followed by Pichon Baron for me.

40

I love how Haut Brion still speaks of the four classified First Growths.