Your ideal alcohol level for a medium/full bodied red?

[Dan_Sch]

In general, reporting requirements are a mostly effective way to reduce fraudulent claims. So requiring wineries to maintain and/or submit independent lab reports that state the actual alcohol percentage should be extremely effective.

[John_Morris]

Here’s where I play devil’s advocate: if that 2019 had come out 60 or 70 years ago, would it have been disparaged or hailed as exceptional? I’m thinking of the famous 1947 Cheval Blanc, which judging by descriptions would have been thrashed as an overripe mess were it to come out today.

Don’t assume that the '47 Cheval Blanc was particularly high in alcohol. William Kelly posted some fascinating figures on great Bordeauxs (and Burgundies and Napa cabs), and many were at alcohol levels that now look shockingly low:

2003 Château Haut Brion: 12.22%, 0.51 TA, pH 3.62
2005 Château Lafite-Rothschild: 12.10%, 0.51 TA, pH 3.72
2000 Château Margaux: 12.20%, 0.57 TA, pH 3.63
1976 Pétrus: 12.05%, 0.45 TA, pH 3.60
1961 Château Palmer: 11.03%, 0.53 TA, pH 3.71
1982 Château Mouton-Rothschild: 11.49%, 0.51 TA, pH 3.66
1990 Château La Mission Haut Brion: 12.04%, 0.49 TA, pH 3.70

[Eric_Lundblad]

For a long time, the alcohol listed on a label of European wine had more to do with math than chemistry: WineAlcBoundry - WineLowerRange where WineAlcBoundry = 14% and WineLowerRange = 1.5%. Hence the prevalence of 12.5% on labels.

When this has changed then? To my understanding the 0,5% tolerance for PDO and 0,8% tolerance for PDI level wines has been in effect for some time.

For bottles that come to the US, the label (or addition to the label) has the std required US ‘stuff’, including alcohol (you know this of course, this is just for clarification). The US allowed a plus or minus 1.5% leeway on the stated alcohol on the label for wines that are at or under 14%alc. Since most European wines are at/under 14%, putting 12.5% covers the bases, and was a std practice for many folks. This is what I was referring to.

[David_Bu3ker]

In the US, TTB rules say that

14% must be within 1% of actual
<=14% must be within 1.5% of actual

If labeled 13.9, it could be 12.4-14
If labeled 14.2, it can only be 14.1-15.2

Really clearly written TTBGov - Wine Labeling: Alcohol Content

Interesting. I stand corrected. I didn’t realize that the margins of error were limited by the tariff line at 14%.

It sure makes me wonder if there aren’t a lot of violations involving wines labeled at less than 14%.

The first rule about potential tariff class violations is don’t talk about potential tariff class violations.

[Eric_Lundblad]

For a long time, the alcohol listed on a label of European wine had more to do with math than chemistry: WineAlcBoundry - WineLowerRange where WineAlcBoundry = 14% and WineLowerRange = 1.5%. Hence the prevalence of 12.5% on labels.

I think, excluding wines greater than ~15%, our perceived alcohol of a wine has as much to do with the amount of ‘higher’ alcohols and stressed fermentations as the actual ethanol level.

Some also assume that what’s on the label is an actual number.

And many don’t make that assumption. It’s not up to the consumers whether there is an accurate abv listed on the label – that’s up to the producers. The consumers have no choice but to go with what’s on the label, absent personal experience with the wine. The huge allowed abv labelling tolerances allowed in the US is annoying/frustrating, even though I do understand why some tolerance is allowed.

And, yes, Eric, some wines above 15% hide their alcohol well; in my experience, most do not; many folks (like myself) have zero interest in buying wines for which they have a 10% success rate. And, seeing as how I have never seen a label identify, or talk about, ‘higher’ alcohols and stressed fermentations, that’s not exactly a practical rubric to go by when buying wines – I don’t even know what you’re talking about when you say ‘higher alcohols’ – what did you mean by that?

I agree it’s hard/impossible for a wine to hide 15% alc. Barolo can be comparatively high in alcohol (14.5 to 15.5) and manages to pull it off, but nebbiolo seems to live in its own magical universe.

Higher alcohols are longer/bigger than Ethanol, so they’re all alcohols but with different characteristics. Fermentation mostly produces Ethanol, but also produces a generally very tiny percent of higher alcohols. You’re right, there’s no way of knowing how much is in a wine, or if the fermentation was stressed. But knowing they’re options that can affect the perception seems usefull…or perhaps not.

The big issue with the labeled alc is the lead time for labels means the decision needs to be made prior to the final blend. This can be an issue even at my small level. My chardonnay for example, ‘free run’ juice will have a higher brix, hence higher alc, than harder pressed juice…I barrel ferment, and these differences are preserved until the final blend is determined. Even so, my alcs are generally quite close. The larger producers live in a different world in this regard.

Having said this, I’m not sure I improved on anything

[Chris_Seiber]

The tough thing is that you usually don’t get to know what the numbers actually are. So much wine from Europe is labeled 12.5% because that just covers them from 11% to 14% legally, or 15% so that covers 14-16%, so you don’t really have much idea what the actual alcohol is.

You also see a decent number of American wines, especially Napa cabs, which just put 14.9% on everything so they can have a number in the 14s yet cover the entire range from 14.0 to 15.9. I think Shafer may have been the one to start doing that, but who knows, and it doesn’t really matter.

[R_Scott_Hughes]

I dunno, some mighty fine wines above 13.5%:

Thunderbird - 17.5%
Night Train Express - 17.5%
Wild Irish Rose - 17%

Having established that your thresholds are far too low, is it the alcohol itself that is too much or is it the winemaking processes required to get that much alcohol result in a wine that isn’t as enjoyable?

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Thanks for explaining “higher alcohols,” Eric.

[John_Morris]

The first rule about potential tariff class violations is don’t talk about potential tariff class violations.

Mum’s the word.

[John_Morris]

And, yes, Eric, some wines above 15% hide their alcohol well; in my experience, most do not; many folks (like myself) have zero interest in buying wines for which they have a 10% success rate. And, seeing as how I have never seen a label identify, or talk about, ‘higher’ alcohols and stressed fermentations, that’s not exactly a practical rubric to go by when buying wines – I don’t even know what you’re talking about when you say ‘higher alcohols’ – what did you mean by that?

Eric responded but, if I can try to paraphrase, I think he’s saying that how conspicuous the alcohol is in a wine isn’t just a function of the ABV level (assuming an accurate label), but is influenced by what proportion of the total alcohol that is non-ethanol “higher alcohols.”

[David_Bu3ker]

I dunno, some mighty fine wines above 13.5%:

Thunderbird - 17.5%
Night Train Express - 17.5%
Wild Irish Rose - 17%

Having established that your thresholds are far too low, is it the alcohol itself that is too much or is it the winemaking processes required to get that much alcohol result in a wine that isn’t as enjoyable?

Some wonderful Port and Sherry has rather high alcohol.

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

12.5 - 14.2% There are exceptions beyond the high end…but not a whole lot. Within the upper half of the range, there’s no guarantee that a given wine won’t feel “hot”. Unlikely in the bottom half.

RT

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

And, yes, Eric, some wines above 15% hide their alcohol well; in my experience, most do not; many folks (like myself) have zero interest in buying wines for which they have a 10% success rate. And, seeing as how I have never seen a label identify, or talk about, ‘higher’ alcohols and stressed fermentations, that’s not exactly a practical rubric to go by when buying wines – I don’t even know what you’re talking about when you say ‘higher alcohols’ – what did you mean by that?

Eric responded but, if I can try to paraphrase, I think he’s saying that how conspicuous the alcohol is in a wine isn’t just a function of the ABV level (assuming an accurate label), but is influenced by what proportion of the total alcohol that is non-ethanol “higher alcohols.”

Yeah, Eric’s explanation cleared-up my confusion.

And that’s a good point … all nice and dandy … but what is a potential buyer to do with that information? Nothing. Exactly nothing. Consumers can only go by (1) information on the label, (2) information from third party sources, and (3) personal experience. Obviously, (3) is the gold standard. Personally, absent (3), I am going to go with (1) when I am standing in a store, contemplating whether to buy. I am, literally, never going to do any research before (or after) buying a wine re: that wine’s actual abv… Sure, sometimes I will come-across this information, but I am never going to spend my time going on that wild goose chase. I am well-aware of allowable tolerances, and therefore take labels’ listed abvs with a grain of salt, but that’s all I am willing to do. And I know I’m not along in this regard.

Those comments are not directed at you, John, but are rather an extension of my little diatribe on the topic.

[Otto_Forsberg]

For bottles that come to the US, the label (or addition to the label) has the std required US ‘stuff’, including alcohol (you know this of course, this is just for clarification). The US allowed a plus or minus 1.5% leeway on the stated alcohol on the label for wines that are at or under 14%alc. Since most European wines are at/under 14%, putting 12.5% covers the bases, and was a std practice for many folks. This is what I was referring to.

The tough thing is that you usually don’t get to know what the numbers actually are. So much wine from Europe is labeled 12.5% because that just covers them from 11% to 14% legally, or 15% so that covers 14-16%, so you don’t really have much idea what the actual alcohol is.

The US law certainly gives leeway for up to 1,5% ABV tolerance. However, I’ve yet to see a single EU wine that would have been bottled with an US back label that would state a different ABV than its European counterpart. Nor have I ever seen a webpage on a US importer / wine shop site give an ABV that would be different from the EU version. Why would they change it? I can imagine the backlash to this kind of stuff would be quite big if such thing was discovered that the importers would think twice before fidgeting with the numbers in the labels.

Like I’ve said earlier, I’ve seen the opposite happen - wines with bigger tolerances in ABV from outside the EU have had their labels changed because the stricter labeling laws here. However, vice versa seems quite implausible. I’m not saying it wouldn’t happen, but considering how much I pay attention to ABVs in wine labels, I’d think I would’ve witnessed such things happen if it were commonplace. I’d be happy to hear any actual first-hand experiences on the matter.

[John_Morris]

Eric responded but, if I can try to paraphrase, I think he’s saying that how conspicuous the alcohol is in a wine isn’t just a function of the ABV level (assuming an accurate label), but is influenced by what proportion of the total alcohol that is non-ethanol “higher alcohols.”

Yeah, Eric’s explanation cleared-up my confusion.

And that’s a good point … all nice and dandy … but what is a potential buyer to do with that information? Nothing. Exactly nothing. Consumers can only go by (1) information on the label, (2) information from third party sources, and (3) personal experience. Obviously, (3) is the gold standard. Personally, absent (3), I am going to go with (1) when I am standing in a store, contemplating whether to buy. I am, literally, never going to do any research before (or after) buying a wine re: that wine’s actual abv… Sure, sometimes I will come-across this information, but I am never going to spend my time going on that wild goose chase. I am well-aware of allowable tolerances, and therefore take labels’ listed abvs with a grain of salt, but that’s all I am willing to do. And I know I’m not along in this regard.

Those comments are not directed at you, John, but are rather an extension of my little diatribe on the topic.

No help to consumers in purchasing, but very helpful in understanding part of the reason the alcohol doesn’t stick out in some 15% wines.

[Otto_Forsberg]

If you see big discrepancies, you should post about those! That would be fascinating.

Remembered to return to this.

Sorry, I doubt I will be seeing much of those anymore. Haven’t worked in a wine shop for a good number of years. Back then I did see some interesting stuff, though!

However, if I happen to venture into one of our monopoly shops, for some reason browse through our disappointing selection of US wines and see such a wine, I’ll try to remember to take a pic and report here.

[Eric_Ifune]

Some of the very best from Ridge have been well over 14%, some over 15%. Also, many below that as well. So I guess, I don’t care. Ridge is one place that will accurately label alcohol levels.
Grenache seems to need higher alcohol levels. Many lovely examples over 14%.

[Adam_Frisch]

Certain varieties seem to do better at different levels of alcohol. And some across a greater spectrum. The grape that seems to have the biggest span in this regard is Syrah, in my opinion. It can be magical at 12% and can be equally magical at 15.5% (but obviously completely different). I can’t think of many varieties that can span that far, although Zinfandel is contender in my opinion. The word amongst the old-timers is that Zin needs to be really ripe to develop its flavors fully, but I can’t say I agree with that from the wines I’ve sampled. Some of the best ones I’ve had are in the 12-13% range.

[Joseph_Grassa]

The word amongst the old-timers is that Zin needs to be really ripe to develop its flavors fully, but I can’t say I agree with that from the wines I’ve sampled. Some of the best ones I’ve had are in the 12-13% range.

Despite not having any dislike for higher abv wines, I prefer my zin/ primitivo lighter bodied as well. I think they serve a different purpose for me though as compared to those who are big drink zin drinkers.

[John_Glas]

I have had 15% wines that are outstanding. The alcohol percent does not dictate for me the quality of the experience.