I really enjoy Rose wines. That said IMO they tend to fall into two distinct camps. Not good and very good. I haven’t found much in between. Though I’m sure they are there but just speaking about my experiences thus far.
I’m not stating a fact, I’m offering my opinion which announced by the repetitive use of the first person. Then I simply asked when is a Rose the better choice than a Red or White?
So far you’ve said you sell a lot and it’s good with swordfish (though something else is undoubtedly better) but what other arguments might you have? I’m happy to be proven wrong.
That does seem like a strange statement to me as well. Plenty of folks enjoy roses as singular wines offering a different experiencethan either a red or a white. And can you please define ‘better’?
Wow! You must have seen a lot of changes in the style of rose. You should write a book on it! ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Sarah,
I think now I get it …
it´s simply a matter of different tastes … a lot of people really DO enjoy Rosés due to the pleasure and the usefulness on the table … I accept that as a fact.
There are only the following reasons why I would chose a Rosé at all:
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in a restaurant: there is no fresh white wine available … or only at a far higher price … and it´s too hot for a heavy red … or it won´t be good with the food …
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at home: I would serve a Rosé as a starter only IF several white wines will follow … certainly not as a single wine …
Dan,
I think you´re overreacting … Paul simply asked a question … and I would partially agree with him (hoping not to insult you in any way) …
but it is definitely my personal taste that I don´t find anything in a rosé which a good white or red can´t deliver better … (but see above)
I also never had a rosé that I would rate more than 90 (maybe 91) points (champagne excluded !) … I don´t have your (most probably) very broad tasting experience with rosés … but the best examples (and I´ve tasted them from young to very well aged) were from Bandol, Tavel and Rhone (e.g. Cairanne) …
however my stock in the cellar is about 6 or 7 bottles …
We probably only get through a bottle every 1-2 years at home, though I am keen to get some Musar Rose and also try Rioja Rosado, plus keep an eye out for some Southern French wines made in a similar style. Last enjoyable one I had was from Cantina del Notaio (Il Sigillo) vibrant with decent complexity and a wine that had enough about it to make you think whether you liked it or not. Add Charles Melton’s Rose of Virginia in, and it’s only about 4 rosés that I have actually enjoyed.
I do understand why Dan was irritated by the comment because it might come across as dismissive/harsh. However it is critical to understanding what (if any) role roses have for us as wine drinkers.
If seeking intensity or complexity above all else, then this challenge is a very fair one. Most rosés are made very simply, using free-run juice, (hopefully) no oak, or at least subtle oak. They are not ambitious and are not going to be as complex or intense as the red made from the remaining juice. The aims are for a simple wine to drink with appropriate food or on a warm day, though in rather too many commercial wines, it’s an excuse for residual or added sugar to soften the acidity - though such techniques are used in other commercial wines to equal effect. The wine is not the star of the show, but rather there to complement the food or the sun. In some cases it’s merely bottling the by-product of seeking a little more concentration in the red, to bring in a little extra revenue and cover another base.
There will be exceptions, and I’m open to explore them, especially those made by blending white grapes with some red grapes, but that leads to a broader thought?
Do we as wine drinkers always want the wine to be the star, to have more complex or intense wines? There are times that is true for me, but I have come round to appreciating more straightforward wines, that support and aren’t meant to be the sole focus - and enjoying them more than a shouty wine in that moment. Maybe that transition will eventually lead to a few more simple & straightforward rosés, but I think I’ll be more likely to explore the more complex, slightly oxidative ones first. If faced with food that might suggest a rosé, then I’m more likely to lean to a lighter red or more substantial white.
A question for Dan. If people seek complexity in wines, which rosés would you suggest that might change their perceptions - maybe something from the natural wine scene, an oxidative style or something utterly maverick?
regards
Ian
Wow, a guess a glass of wine a day is beneficial to a long life. Lol.
The responses to topic have caught my by surprise. My total for 2017 is ZERO. Like Ian, many of the still roses I have tried doesn’t offer intensity nor complexity to merit attention over dinner.
However its a nice fun drink on a summer evening with a big group of friends. I will bring a bottle at a friend’s rooftop party.
The only bit of Paul’s question I take issue with it the term “better wine.” (Okay, I also take issue with the suggestion that rose champagne is “adulterated,” but we can save that for another time.) It’s not only without any real meaning in this context, and clearly just a reflection of Paul’s personal preferences, I’m not sure it expresses the question he means to pose. I could be wrong, Paul, but I think you are asking about characteristics of a rosé versus either a white or a red that would make it a better tool in certain circumstances, not about the quality of the wine?
If you change that question to “what do you think rose solves that a red or white wine wouldn’t do better” then I do think it’s a useful question, and one I will try to answer.
Take for instance the example I gave earlier in this thread, of our seared octopus with Romesco sauce. You have a meaty texture of the octopus, but delicate flavor plus the char, accompanied by a very savory sauce with a bit of heat from the paprika and richness from the nuts, along with complexity and acidity of the tomato in there. Tons of texture. Then potatoes with mint and chorizo are also a challenge with the mint and acidity of the dressing. We have a varied cellar, and could really reach for almost any style of wine, but we chose a medium bodied, tannat-based rosé from Irouleguy that can make a bridge from the octopus to the sauce to the potatoes, provide texture without oak and lend its own intense spicy character, not simply act as a foil. I am sure there are some reds that could have worked, but red wouldn’t be my choice for various reasons, including a personal preference of mine (I almost always dislike the interaction of seafood oil with red wine in my mouth). There are a larger number of viable whites that would have been dandy, but we wanted a touch of tannin for texture, some redder fruit and the tomato snap that is characteristic of Brana’s Harri Gorri. Are there other good options? Again - absolutely. Otherwise it wouldn’t be a choice, now, would it? 
And just because it’s our choice doesn’t mean it should be everyone’s choice. Much of pairing is preference. Gerhard will likely say he thinks a “fresh and lively” white would have worked better, I’m sure. 
There are many other instances when we choose rosé – for a varied array of dishes like tapas that includes both seafood and chorizo, with lamb burgers and tzatziki, when we go to our local Armenian kebab place, with salade nicoise…… We find it to be the best tool for jobs of that sort. And I applaud Ian’s point above that wine needn’t always be the star. We take a lot of joy in wines that, while well-made, delicious and interesting, aren’t attention grabbers and don’t require contemplation. Our rosés fall into this category, though I do think they are far more robust and serious, if you will, than many rosés out there.
To be clear, I’m not trying to make any converts here. Paul’s preferences or Gerhard’s are just as valid as mine, and I see no reason to try and convince someone they should like what they don’t like. My aim is only answer a question about my own choices and preferences.
that’s a charitable rework of my question Sarah. Thank you.
Why not choose halbtrocken with the Octopus? Why does Rose work better there?
Ian,
very well written …
One question for me is:
in Tavel the rosé is the only wine legally made … it cannot be made by saignée (bleeding off) because there is no use for the remaining juice/skins (except declassifying into Cotes-du-Rhone maybe) … so it´s made with a (more or less) short skin contact … and then quick pressing …
So I guess the wine makers put all their effort into making a fine Tavel (rosé) …
![[scratch.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/4/42a16863a8714da3c1604419e3eb9206bb87aa50.gif "scratch"){kind=small}
However - having tasted a good number of the best Tavels … I still remain quite unmoved …
well, there are very good examples - like Mordoree, d´Aqueria, Mejan-Taulier, Trinquevedel, Roc Epine, Maby, Segries … but it´s never a really outstanding wine on it´s own … often a good drink nevertheless …
and curiously I usually prefer (except Mordoree) other rosés like Bandol, Cairanne …
Granted: many Tavel producers offer also other wines - like Lirac, Cote-du-Rhone(-Villages), even CdP … but the signature wine should be really profound - right?
My choice wouldn´t be a “halbtrocken” but either a Grüner Veltliner (Wachau or Kamptal/trocken) or a Pinot gris (from Styria) …
However - my problem: usually when I find an octopus on a restaurant menu … there is no Grüner Veltliner or Pinot gris (from Styria) available …
… and at home I rarely have fresh octopus …
![[head-bang.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/b/b1cd199e4b2b2988b5107c3c9598fd28dc92a776.gif "[head-bang.gif]"){kind=small}
We didn’t want any sweetness, and we did want a little tannin.
Edit - and to add some red fruit elements that work especially well with the romesco.
Hi Gerhard
I recall many years ago, that Tavel was held up as ‘the serious wine drinker’s rosé’, but I’m not at all convinced by it either, though 2-3 wines were all I tried before moving onto other wines. None impressed at all, but others may feel different.
regards
Ian
Interesting, I had a seared octopus very similar to this last week and the restaurant’s BTG selection was nothing great, so I chose a Hudson Valley dry cider that worked extremely well with it, noting how tannic the finish was.
I agree that there remain many ‘simple’ roses out there, and I think that will not only continue but will increase in numbers.
That said, there are many of us out there who take the category seriously and do try to produce rose wines with more ‘complexity’ without making them too heavy.
Cheers.
For those looking for a rose that possesses complexity, I would offer Cotat’s Chavignol as a candidate.
My CT records show about 7% for still rose, 3.5% for sparkling.
In both styles my favorite roses provide what I taste as primarily red-wine flavors and tannic and savory elements to go along with white-wine acidity and clarity. I enjoy them at very cool red-wine temperature and prefer rose to accompany foods which are meaty but also light or tart or just hard to match. Some examples include lentil soup; chicken chili; pasta with chicken, vegetables, or seafood, but also tomatoes; bufalo caprese salad; charcouterie; BBQ; meaty fish such as salmon, halibut, or sturgeon…
My choices admittedly tend to be made by folks who are trying to produce a wine which is a worthy drink on its own, rather than as a byproduct of other wines, and of course the pricing is relaively higher as well.
Some examples:
Still:
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Château D'Arlay Côtes du Jura Corail 19.2% Consumed (35) / Price: average $22.09 -
Clos Cibonne Tibouren Côtes de Provence Rosé Cuvée Spéciale des Vignettes 6.0% Consumed (11) / Price: average $29.25 -
R. López de Heredia Rioja Rosado Crianza Viña Tondonia 6.0% Consumed (11) / Price: average $25.00 -
Ameztoi Getariako Txakolina Rubentis 5.5% Consumed (10) / Price: average $21.80 -
Bodegas Los Bermejos Lanzarote Listan Rosado 4.4% Consumed (8) / Price: average $19.50 -
Domaine Guion Bourgueil Rosé 3.3% Consumed (6) / Price: average $13.67 -
Bonavita Rosato Terre Siciliane IGT 2.2% Consumed (4) / Price: average $20.00 -
Azienda Agricola Valentini Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo 2.2% Consumed (4) / Price: average $63.50 -
Didier Desvignes Morgon Esprit de Rose 2.2% Consumed (4) / Price: average $16.00 -
Torre Dei Beati Cerasuolo d'Abruzzo 2.2% Consumed (4) / Price: average $16.50 -
Domaine du Bagnol Cassis Rosé 1.6% Consumed (3) / Price: average $14.39 -
Bisson Ciliegiolo Portofino 1.6% Consumed (3) / Price: average $19.00 -
Frank Cornelissen Susucaru 3 1.6% Consumed (3) / Price: average $28.00 -
Domaine Ilarria Irouléguy Rosé 1.6% Consumed (3) / Price: average $18.00 -
Edmunds St. John Gamay Bone-Jolly Rose Witters Vineyard 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $24.00 -
Heinrich Mayr (Nusserhof) Lagrein Alto Adige - Südtirol Kretzer 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $25.00 -
Karine Lauverjat Sancerre Rosé 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $23.00 -
Domaine Hauvette Les Baux-de-Provence Petra 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $18.50 -
Domaine François Cotat (Paul & François) Sancerre Chavignol Rosé 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $38.00 -
Domaine des Tours Parisy 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $27.00 -
Château Jean-Pierre Gaussen Bandol Rosé 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $19.00 -
Domaine Bernard Baudry Chinon Rosé 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $17.50 -
Proprietà Sperino Lessona Rosa del Rosa 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $19.00 -
Olivier Horiot Rosé des Riceys En Valingrain 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $40.00 -
Stift Göttweig Pinot Noir Messwein 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $19.00 -
Tablas Creek Rosé 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $13.00 -
Vigneti Massa Terra Sic Est 1.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $15.50
Sparkling:
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Domaine de la Tournelle Arbois Petillant de Raisin 9.6% Consumed (9) / Price: average $24.67 -
Philippe Bornard Poulsard Vin de Table Français Tant-mieux 5.3% Consumed (5) / Price: average $26.00 -
Olivier Horiot Champagne Sève Rosé de Saignée En Barmont 5.3% Consumed (5) / Price: average $54.50 -
G.D. Vajra N.S. della Neve 5.3% Consumed (5) / Price: average $39.00 -
Soutiran Champagne Grand Cru Brut Rosé 4.3% Consumed (4) / Price: average $32.506 -
Les Crêtes Prëmetta Valle d'Aosta 3.2% Consumed (3) / Price: average $54.00 -
Marie-Noëlle Ledru Champagne Grand Cru Brut Rosé de Saignée 3.2% Consumed (3) / Price: average $68.00 -
Tissot (Bénédicte et Stéphane / André et Mireille) Crémant du Jura Rosé 2.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $21.00 -
René-Henri Coutier Champagne Brut Rosé 2.1% Consumed (2) / Price: average $45.00 -
René Geoffroy Champagne Rosé de Saignée Brut 1er Cru 1.1% Consumed (1) / Value: average $50.00 -
Philipponnat Champagne Réserve Rosée 1.1% Consumed (1) / Price: average $43.00 -
Coessens Champagne Rosé de Saignée Largillier 1.1% Consumed (1) / Price: average $56.50 -
Guy Larmandier Champagne Premier Cru Brut Rosé 1.1% Consumed (1) / Value: average $65.00 -
Henri Goutorbe Champagne Grand Cru Brut Rosé 1.1% Consumed (1) / Price: average $53.50 -
Benoît Lahaye Champagne Grand Cru Rose de Maceration 1.1% Consumed (1) / Price: average $47.00 -
Paul Bara Grand Rosé 1.1% Consumed (1) / Price: average $64.00
Thank you for this summary. Nicely put. I think we are largely on the same page as far as how and when to use rose, and we too appreciate roses that the producer clearly takes seriously in and of themselves.
My brother doesn’t get why we drink rose all summer either. Some people just don’t like it, or always have other wines they would prefer. I take no offense- One persons trash is another’s treasure, etc, etc.
The reason I like Rose (typically traditionally made styles i.e. those from Cotes du Provence, Tavel, Bandol, and the occasional new world Rose not made from Saignee) is that at the basest level it is refreshing, tasty, and clean, but with a bit more red wine character- i.e. light notes of berry, watermelon, etc- that are unique to Rose and not found in white wines. They go well with most summer/grilled foods or are just as tasty as an aperitif. Some of the top ones can be quite complex and intellectual, but frankly what I most often look for is clean, tasty, refreshing and not something to ponder. Something delicious to quaff.
I also drink “Better Wines” 
i.e. Gruner Veltliner, Sauv Blanc, Chablis, etc during the summer, but most often I find myself looking for Rose.
Your mileage may vary. But I am pretty sure I am not wrong about what I like. ![[thankyou.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/d/df165fe9c1593d19166ae7e1ffe5e272089cc07b.gif "thankyou"){kind=small}