WSJ...The Reserve wine list

John_O · July 27, 2015, 11:19pm

We have a terrific new restaurant in the Finger Lakes called The Krebs. The Somm and the wine list are terrific. As I’m just beginning my Burgundy adventure, I ask him to recommend something. His eyes light up and he recommended a Volnay that was terrific. On my most recent visit I explained my journey, that he last recommended a Volnay and that I wanted something from the opposite end of the spectrum. He recommended a 2005 Domaine Alain Burguet Gevrey-Chambertin En Reniard. It was $90 and I was blown away. Tried to source it online the next day and the cheapest I could find it online was $110. I was one of those always bring my own and pay the corkage guys. The moral of this story is that the Somm can bring a lot to the table.

Chris_Seiber · July 27, 2015, 11:37pm

I agree. I think the markup is usually higher on a percentage basis on the least expensive wines.

Bruce_Leiser_owitz · July 28, 2015, 2:38am

Ian Dorin:

Bob Hughes:

As an aside, and I’m sure I’m in the minority here because she comes across as a truly nice/pleasant person, but I find virtually all of Lettie’s wine commentary to border on vacuous. Then again, she does write for WSJ, so the bar for wine commentary has been set pretty low there.

It’s not that the bar has been set low, the audience isn’t say, the WB crowd, and a little extra spoonful isn’t a bad idea to maximize readership. I talk to people all the time who are big wine drinkers, and have no clue about wine.

I’m seriously confused on why restaurants have 2 lists. Makes ZERO sense to me.

Do they size you up before you come in and say “that guy will NEVER see the Reserve list…”?

You have to print the pages any way. Why not just keep all the Cabs and Pinots and Chard together? God forbid someone in a t-shirt and jeans orders the most expensive bottle on the list…

One of the reasons to print a separate “Reserve List” is that the inventory on the Reserve List presumably doesn’t turn over very often due to price, so you probably don’t have to print up new copies of the entire Reserve List very often. By contrast, if you have a reasonably successful wine program, then you’re constantly adding/subtracting entries from the Main Wine List and thus need to re-print it more frequently.

Every restaurant has a different philosophy on whether to have a separate Reserve List, whether to give guests the Reserve List at the same time as the Main Wine List, how to price the wine on the Reserve List, etc. I don’t think it’s a “one size fits all” scenario.

Just as an example, let’s say you have a very good top-end Bordeaux or Burgundy that regularly retails for $500. Even if you put it on the list for the relatively modest markup of 2X retail, how many diners does the restaurant have that are going to be willing to shell out $1,000 for a bottle of wine with dinner? The answer to that question will vary widely between restaurants…

Bruce

T_Riley · July 28, 2015, 7:40pm

I don’t there are a lot of people buying wine above $1000 in any market. Retail or restaurant.

Maybe in Vegas.

Nathan_V · July 28, 2015, 8:02pm

Bruce Leiser_owitz:

Ian Dorin:

Bob Hughes:

As an aside, and I’m sure I’m in the minority here because she comes across as a truly nice/pleasant person, but I find virtually all of Lettie’s wine commentary to border on vacuous. Then again, she does write for WSJ, so the bar for wine commentary has been set pretty low there.

It’s not that the bar has been set low, the audience isn’t say, the WB crowd, and a little extra spoonful isn’t a bad idea to maximize readership. I talk to people all the time who are big wine drinkers, and have no clue about wine.

I’m seriously confused on why restaurants have 2 lists. Makes ZERO sense to me.

Do they size you up before you come in and say “that guy will NEVER see the Reserve list…”?

You have to print the pages any way. Why not just keep all the Cabs and Pinots and Chard together? God forbid someone in a t-shirt and jeans orders the most expensive bottle on the list…

One of the reasons to print a separate “Reserve List” is that the inventory on the Reserve List presumably doesn’t turn over very often due to price, so you probably don’t have to print up new copies of the entire Reserve List very often. By contrast, if you have a reasonably successful wine program, then you’re constantly adding/subtracting entries from the Main Wine List and thus need to re-print it more frequently.

Every restaurant has a different philosophy on whether to have a separate Reserve List, whether to give guests the Reserve List at the same time as the Main Wine List, how to price the wine on the Reserve List, etc. I don’t think it’s a “one size fits all” scenario.

Just as an example, let’s say you have a very good top-end Bordeaux or Burgundy that regularly retails for $500. Even if you put it on the list for the relatively modest markup of 2X retail, how many diners does the restaurant have that are going to be willing to shell out $1,000 for a bottle of wine with dinner? The answer to that question will vary widely between restaurants…

Bruce

Bingo, finally someone thinking like a restaurateur.

We have a 2-page regular list that goes down on every table. Because we deal in small production items, it can change frequently. We also want to keep it to front and back of a single page. We are a simple restaurant not looking for stars, etc. On the bottom of the wine list it clearly states “Please ask to see our Reserve list” so everyone who wants to can. We don’t give it to anybody when they sit down. Our reserve list doesn’t turn over a lot and contains wine that we may just have a couple of bottles of. It turns over at 1/5th the rate that the regular list does (if that). It’s a logistical as well as stylistic issue.

We use a non-linear pricing function I developed (a simple one really) that decreases the mark-up as the price of the bottle increases. The difference with the reserve list is that the lower asymptote is smaller and I’ve indexed the base price to rise an average of 5% a year (which is less than that money would if we invested it, maybe). A few of the wines are recent releases where we only get a few bottles. I also adjust for a “vintage effect” so people don’t come and only drink 2009s, etc. I’m worried both about pricing the wine too low (it dissolves quickly) and too high (doesn’t move).

I don’t see what we’re doing as gouging, but offering our customers a cool experience at moderately higher prices that reflect our investment in cellaring wines.

I don’t imagine that we are the only restaurant that operates this way, so having two lists makes sense, pace Manlin et Teague.

Bruce_Leiser_owitz · July 29, 2015, 1:17am

Nathan V.:

We have a 2-page regular list that goes down on every table. Because we deal in small production items, it can change frequently. We also want to keep it to front and back of a single page. We are a simple restaurant not looking for stars, etc. On the bottom of the wine list it clearly states “Please ask to see our Reserve list” so everyone who wants to can. We don’t give it to anybody when they sit down. Our reserve list doesn’t turn over a lot and contains wine that we may just have a couple of bottles of. It turns over at 1/5th the rate that the regular list does (if that). It’s a logistical as well as stylistic issue.

We use a non-linear pricing function I developed (a simple one really) that decreases the mark-up as the price of the bottle increases. The difference with the reserve list is that the lower asymptote is smaller and I’ve indexed the base price to rise an average of 5% a year (which is less than that money would if we invested it, maybe). A few of the wines are recent releases where we only get a few bottles. I also adjust for a “vintage effect” so people don’t come and only drink 2009s, etc. I’m worried both about pricing the wine too low (it dissolves quickly) and too high (doesn’t move).

I don’t see what we’re doing as gouging, but offering our customers a cool experience at moderately higher prices that reflect our investment in cellaring wines.
.

Nathan–Thanks for the feedback from the “real world.” I’ve seen a lot of variance in how restaurants handle the small number of old/rare wines that they have in inventory. Your comments on pricing–you don’t want the wines to run out the door, but you do want the wines to move eventually–make a tremendous amount of sense.

Bruce

Marcu_Stanley · July 29, 2015, 10:13pm

I am very anti-snobbism but a reserve list makes good sense just because the wine market is so highly segmented. It just makes sense to offer different lists to customers who have entirely different relationships to wine, in terms of knowledge, price points, etc., as well as wines that have different supply conditions and turnover.

Berry_Crawford · July 29, 2015, 11:31pm

As evidence of my low social standing, I had no idea that reserve lists even existed.

Craig_G · July 29, 2015, 11:41pm

I don’t think they have one at Applebee’s.

Tom_G_l_a_s_g_o_w · July 30, 2015, 1:19am

Bruce Leiser_owitz:

Nathan V.:

We have a 2-page regular list that goes down on every table. Because we deal in small production items, it can change frequently. We also want to keep it to front and back of a single page. We are a simple restaurant not looking for stars, etc. On the bottom of the wine list it clearly states “Please ask to see our Reserve list” so everyone who wants to can. We don’t give it to anybody when they sit down. Our reserve list doesn’t turn over a lot and contains wine that we may just have a couple of bottles of. It turns over at 1/5th the rate that the regular list does (if that). It’s a logistical as well as stylistic issue.

We use a non-linear pricing function I developed (a simple one really) that decreases the mark-up as the price of the bottle increases. The difference with the reserve list is that the lower asymptote is smaller and I’ve indexed the base price to rise an average of 5% a year (which is less than that money would if we invested it, maybe). A few of the wines are recent releases where we only get a few bottles. I also adjust for a “vintage effect” so people don’t come and only drink 2009s, etc. I’m worried both about pricing the wine too low (it dissolves quickly) and too high (doesn’t move).

I don’t see what we’re doing as gouging, but offering our customers a cool experience at moderately higher prices that reflect our investment in cellaring wines.
.

Nathan–Thanks for the feedback from the “real world.” I’ve seen a lot of variance in how restaurants handle the small number of old/rare wines that they have in inventory. Your comments on pricing–you don’t want the wines to run out the door, but you do want the wines to move eventually–make a tremendous amount of sense.

Bruce

it makes sense, but Rue Cler is the only restaurant I’m aware of that prices wines that way.

S_L_i_m · July 30, 2015, 2:29am

Interesting. I always assumed that reserve lists exist for the same reason bottle service at clubs do - for people to spend large chunks of money, to feel ‘special’ and ‘exclusive.’

I mean, I don’t think anyone goes in thinking they are getting a good deal. The question isn’t ‘am I getting ripped off?’ but ‘how much am I getting ripped off and how special do I want to feel today?’

My armchair psychology at work!

Nathan_V · July 30, 2015, 1:35pm

Tom G l a s g o w:

Bruce Leiser_owitz:

Nathan V.:

We have a 2-page regular list that goes down on every table. Because we deal in small production items, it can change frequently. We also want to keep it to front and back of a single page. We are a simple restaurant not looking for stars, etc. On the bottom of the wine list it clearly states “Please ask to see our Reserve list” so everyone who wants to can. We don’t give it to anybody when they sit down. Our reserve list doesn’t turn over a lot and contains wine that we may just have a couple of bottles of. It turns over at 1/5th the rate that the regular list does (if that). It’s a logistical as well as stylistic issue.

We use a non-linear pricing function I developed (a simple one really) that decreases the mark-up as the price of the bottle increases. The difference with the reserve list is that the lower asymptote is smaller and I’ve indexed the base price to rise an average of 5% a year (which is less than that money would if we invested it, maybe). A few of the wines are recent releases where we only get a few bottles. I also adjust for a “vintage effect” so people don’t come and only drink 2009s, etc. I’m worried both about pricing the wine too low (it dissolves quickly) and too high (doesn’t move).

I don’t see what we’re doing as gouging, but offering our customers a cool experience at moderately higher prices that reflect our investment in cellaring wines.
.

Nathan–Thanks for the feedback from the “real world.” I’ve seen a lot of variance in how restaurants handle the small number of old/rare wines that they have in inventory. Your comments on pricing–you don’t want the wines to run out the door, but you do want the wines to move eventually–make a tremendous amount of sense.

Bruce

it makes sense, but Rue Cler is the only restaurant I’m aware of that prices wines that way.

I’d be happy to share my method with anyone who is interested. The vintage bump allows you to fiddle without completely pulling stuff out of your ass.

Nathan_V · July 30, 2015, 1:36pm

Not at all. In fact, I wish more people ordered from the cellar list. Unfortunately, people drink Sancerre and Médoc by the glass, as if they were true Parisians.