Would You Drink a Nazi Wine??

[James_Lyon]

The Robert E Lee stuff…what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?

It’s a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I’m glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn’t really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don’t want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.

Lee graduated from West Point and had a very distinguished military career including service in the Mexican-American War and later as Superintendent at West Point. Lee opposed secession and as Greg T notes joined the Confederacy to protect his native Virginia.

[Neal.Mollen]

The Robert E Lee stuff…what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?

It’s a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I’m glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn’t really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don’t want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.

I don’t mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won.

Excuse me?

[mark_rudner]

this is about wine, right?

[robert_creth]

this is about wine, right?

No it is not. This is purely political. While the question may be something to discuss, this is not the forum for that.

[Anton_D]

this is about wine, right?

Yes, I would drink the wine.

If the current owner was espousing the same vile nonsense, I would not, but currently no public crazy talk and the original crazy person is long gone, so OK by me!

My son says the maker of 805 beer is a kook, but still drinks his beer. We all have our own approaches.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

My grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust; their children, spouses, siblings and parents were not. Growing up, I was told by family members and teachers to boycott German products. Following the Holocaust, Germany paid reparations to survivors and today, Germany is a friend of Israel and seems, at least on the governmental level and many individuals as well, to have atoned for and made up for its terrible past. Boycotting German products does nothing to undo the terrible past. Last week, Austria passed legislation granting citizenship to descendants of Holocaust survivors. That’s another step in the right direction of making amends.

Well said. Thank you for the post.

[Marcus_Goodfellow]

The Robert E Lee stuff…what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?

It’s a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I’m glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn’t really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don’t want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.

Thanks for posting this. It’s well said and a viewpoint I hadn’t been exposed to. I was familiar with Lee and the complicated choices he had to make, but had never really thought about the civil war as an establishment of a Federal identity ahead of states identity.

[TomHill]

My grandparents were survivors of the Holocaust; their children, spouses, siblings and parents were not. Growing up, I was told by family members and teachers to boycott German products. Following the Holocaust, Germany paid reparations to survivors and today, Germany is a friend of Israel and seems, at least on the governmental level and many individuals as well, to have atoned for and made up for its terrible past. Boyce plotting German products does nothing to undo the terrible past. Last week, Austria passed legislation granting citizenship to descendants of Holocaust survivors. That’s another step in the right direction of making amends.

Well said. Thank you for the post.

Yup, Marcus…totally agree. Very good post by Rubin.
Tom

[A_Gillette]

The Robert E Lee stuff…what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman…

Well, perhaps not by the accounts of the hundreds of slaves that he owned.

[Wes_Barton]

The Robert E Lee stuff…what are they commemorating? Second place in the Civil War? By all accounts, he was a gentleman, but he led an army against my country and killed American soldiers, should I put up memorials to Isaac Brock, as well?

It’s a little more complicated. The Iron Chancellor, Otto von Bismark, united Germany with blood and iron. He first united the smaller northern German states behind Prussia, and then incorporated the southern states.

His contemporary, Abraham Lincoln, did the same in the US. Had Lincoln not done so, the US today would be a fairly loose confederation of states and there would be another fairly loose confederation of states in the south. But at the time, Lincoln had no authority to force states to remain in the union. As conceived by the founders, the US was a voluntary organization of mutual dependency. Before Lincoln, there were united states. After Lincoln, there was the United States.

I’m glad it worked out and everything, but Lee didn’t really lead an army against your country because the concept of the country in those days was very different. His view was that he was defending his state and its allies against invaders who wanted to impose their will. South Carolina had seceded and Major Anderson kept occupation of the incomplete Fort Sumpter, which the state, considering itself sovereign, had asked him to leave. Lincoln decided to reinforce it and we know what happened next.

I don’t want to go overboard defending Lee, but we need to understand that his context was very different from ours today. And as mentioned above, I think a lot of the Civil War statues were not so much directly after the war as they were much later and for different reasons.

And secession was because the federal government had stopped compelling northern states to enforce fugitive slave laws. So, ironically, and counter to the southern mythology, secession was an act against states’ rights. It was an act of desperation in the face of collapsing structural support for slavery, encouraged by promises from the British Empire.

As for Lee, his voice was important when the war ended, essentially saying “It’s over, we lost, time to put the guns away and be one country again.”

Lee graduated from West Point and had a very distinguished military career including service in the Mexican-American War and later as Superintendent at West Point. Lee opposed secession and as Greg T notes joined the Confederacy to protect his native Virginia.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Volkswagon, Hugo Boss, Bayer…Nazi’s.

And don’t forget Krupp. That family armed every Reich to the hilt. Still in existence.

A very. Very worthy read, a true tome of about 1000 pages:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075WRSKWF/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1

Written by Manchester in 1968, a tremendous historian who spoke with almost all of the family members.

I wear Hugo Boss. Didn’t know the connection until Corey pointed it out to me.

Never forget history, but at a certain point, are public or other major companies to be held accountable for things that happened generations before? A very personal decision for each and every one of us, and that decision is correct for you and you alone. No judgments.

[Dan_Kravitz]

To answer the OP questions:
No. Yes. No.

to Anton D, you wrote “I don’t mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won.”
Can you please clarify?
Do you wish that the southern border of the United States of America was the Mason-Dixon line and that the United States was bordered by a country called the Confederate States of America, which would be a slaveholding country? Do you wish that there were still slaveholding countries? Officially there aren’t any, but reasonable estimates are that there are at least 30 million slaves today. I personally wish the number was zero. Do you?

Robert E. Lee was a complicated person, as is every other person. There is much to admire about him as well as much to despise.
He promised his slaves freedom on his death. He lied. Of course, the choice was taken out of his hands, I am happy to say.

Actually I would rather ban Zweigelt the grape than Zweigelt the name. The wines are, IMO, usually Putrid Swill. I’ve probably tried half a dozen over a few decades. Most were drinkable, a few were not. I’ve never had one that made me even consider getting another glass or bottle, the whole idea is stomach-churning.

Dan Kravitz

[TomHill]

Well said, Robert. Totally agree. It’s a personal decision.
Tom

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

No, No, No

Zweigelt is intriguing and often quite tasty. Changing the name would adversely impact producers and confuse consumers who currently buy wines made from the “most widely planted red grape” in Austria. No, I believe Robert E. Lee was a great man who fought for the wrong side. There are too many statues/memorials of military “heroes” intended to glorify the confederacy. They should be reduced, but not all destroyed.

RT

[Mike_Cohen]

Never forget history, but at a certain point, are public or other major companies to be held accountable for things that happened generations before? A very personal decision for each and every one of us, and that decision is correct for you and you alone. No judgments.

This is pretty much how I feel. That said, I don’t buy German cars. Its out of respect for my mom and grandparents and their feelings. Not because I think todays executives at Audi are bad people.

[David_Bu3ker]

The grapes do not know who created them.

[Anton_D]

to Anton D, you wrote “I don’t mind you defending Lee, I wish he had won.”
Can you please clarify?
Do you wish that the southern border of the United States of America was the Mason-Dixon line and that the United States was bordered by a country called the Confederate States of America, which would be a slaveholding country? Do you wish that there were still slaveholding countries? Officially there aren’t any, but reasonable estimates are that there are at least 30 million slaves today. I personally wish the number was zero. Do you?

No comment on slavery was intended.

[robert_creth]

So my answer to OP questions are. Yes, Yes, Yes.

[Howard_Cooper]

I would drink Zweigelt, but would prefer it be renamed. WW II ended a long time ago and we should not punish people in Germany and Austria for things their grandparents did.

I would get rid of the Civil War statues in both the north and the south, except at battlefields. These seem today to be mostly about sticking it to the other side and we still need to make peace between the north and the south today. Let both sides take down their statues.

If the South had won and been a separate country, I would not be living in a country with Donald Trump as President. I think it is best that the North won, but I would be happy to divide into two countries now.

[Jeff_Cassetta]

This thread has gone so wrong regarding R.E.Lee

It’s just so easy to judge the past when you’re not living it. I find based on past experience that most people that “judge” the behavior of the past don’t really know much of the actual history of the time…