Worst wine, and perhaps worst wine chemistry, ever?

[Nick_Ryan]

Regarding this and the recent Coturri thread:

There’s a fine line between admirable iconoclasm and bull-headed stupidity. The line seems to be crossed when a winemaker decides not to use SO2 yet still bottle the stuff and ship it large distances to paying customers.

[Robert_Dentice]

I think this is a worthwhile debate. My interpretation of some of the comments is that these wines should not be made. I would respectfully ask the question of all of you who do not like these wines - why do you think some people really love them? I know many very experienced tasters who like these wines.

[Linda_Baehr]

@Josh Beck

His winemaking is akin to believing that refrigeration is interventionist and salmonella is part of the natural terroir of chicken.

Now THAT’S funny!

I would love to try these wines just out of curiousity, but I can’t imagine I would like them. In school we learn to taste for flaws. Honestly, it can limit one’s ability to enjoy certain wines on their face, but we are taught to taste for flaws so that we can recognize problems early on…so we can learn what NOT to do. I can’t imagine drinking a bacterial soup would be enjoyable.

[DCowell]

@Robert Dentice

I think this is a worthwhile debate. My interpretation of some of the comments is that these wines should not be made. I would respectfully ask the question of all of you who do not like these wines - why do you think some people really love them? I know many very experienced tasters who like these wines.

When wines are made with little or no SO2 and minimal intervention there are some bottles that make it through just fine, and some that do not. I have had similar experiences of top bottles and terrible ones from Allemand (sans soufre). If a wine is highly suceptible to spoilage then it should be kept close to home, as there is no way to guarantee the entire chain of custody will be pristine. I see you have purchased a lot of these wines. I hope your luck with them is better than mine was with Allemand. Of course it’s your wallet.

[Roy_Piper]

VA of 1.81. Ouch. My guess is he rarely topped? Maybe never topped?

[Roberto_Rogness]

“I can’t imagine drinking a bacterial soup would be enjoyable.”

Linda, do you like cheese? Fish Sauce? Yoghurt?

[John_Cabot]

@Hank

I don’t think Rosenthal is talking about bad cellar hygiene and making excuses for it. I think he is referring to site specific brett. Yes, it does exist. I work with one zin vineyard block that has a small touch of brett every year. Anything picked outside this block is fine. So I’d say that it IS part of that patch of soil, and does indeed reflect that terroir. I know of other vineyards which do the same.

Just because that section of the vineyard had been infected with Brett, doesn’t make it terroir. It is easily transferable to other sections, vineyards and wineries, and therefore not reflective of any individual site.

[Mike_Officer]

Just because that section of the vineyard had been infected with Brett, doesn’t make it terrior. It is easily transferable to other sections, vineyards and wineries, and therefore not reflective of any individual site.

Not only this Hank, but how do you know the Brett is coming from the vineyard? Have you done a culture, scorpion, or other tests to confirm it’s in the must on crush? Of course, even then you would need to rule out that it’s not coming from picking bins, picking knives, equipment, etc. It could simply be that the fruit from that particular area is supportive of Brett growth, hence a Brett bloom every year.

Current scientific understanding is that Brett is not a vineyard yeast. It is a yeast that lives in unsanitary conditions such as a winery’s drains, floors, hoses, cooperage, etc. Hence, it has nothing to do with terroir.

Mike

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

@Mike Officer

Just because that section of the vineyard had been infected with Brett, doesn’t make it terrior. It is easily transferable to other sections, vineyards and wineries, and therefore not reflective of any individual site.

Not only this Hank, but how do you know the Brett is coming from the vineyard? Have you done a culture, scorpion, or other tests to confirm it’s in the must on crush? Of course, even then you would need to rule out that it’s not coming from picking bins, picking knives, equipment, etc. It could simply be that the fruit from that particular area is supportive of Brett growth, hence a Brett bloom every year.

Current scientific understanding is that Brett is not a vineyard yeast. It is a yeast that lives in unsanitary conditions such as a winery’s drains, floors, hoses, cooperage, etc. Hence, it has nothing to do with terroir.

Mike

I know your strong belief in science, Mike, but science has been proven wrong again and again and again and…

I am not anti-science, but it always seems to be the case that just when we all think we’ve got something figured out, a scientist somewhere will come along with contradictory evidence. Remember how bad eggs were supposed to be for you? Not any more. Remember how bad coffee is supposed to be? Not any more… the list goes on…

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

@John Cabot

@Hank

I don’t think Rosenthal is talking about bad cellar hygiene and making excuses for it. I think he is referring to site specific brett. Yes, it does exist. I work with one zin vineyard block that has a small touch of brett every year. Anything picked outside this block is fine. So I’d say that it IS part of that patch of soil, and does indeed reflect that terroir. I know of other vineyards which do the same.

Just because that section of the vineyard had been infected with Brett, doesn’t make it terrior. It is easily transferable to other sections, vineyards and wineries, and therefore not reflective of any individual site.

John, this brettiness does not transfer. It stays in that section of zin and NEVER shows up in anything around it. Even racking the bretty wine out the barrels and refilling them with zin from a different section DOES NOT result in that 2nd lot becoming infected.

Sorry if this does not meet your notion of how brett behaves, but this is the reality of the situation. Instead of dismissing the idea of brett being part of a terroir (and I know they don’t teach this at Davis), maybe one could open one’s mind to the idea, the possibility even, that this could occur.

There is an explanation for this, we just don’t know it yet. That’s what makes it so interesting, right?

-Hank

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

@DCowell

Passion and iconoclasm mean nothing when the wine turns out like crap. People spend their hard-earned pennies on a bottle of wine & it is some blundered grade school science experiment? That’s not passion, that’s irresponsibility to my wallet.

D- don’t worry! I doubt very much your local wine merchant will insist that the best wine for your steak tonight is a bottle of Frank Cornelissen.

And remember, one man’s crap is another man’s gold. Ask a farmer.

[John_Cabot]

@Hank

@John Cabot

@Hank

I don’t think Rosenthal is talking about bad cellar hygiene and making excuses for it. I think he is referring to site specific brett. Yes, it does exist. I work with one zin vineyard block that has a small touch of brett every year. Anything picked outside this block is fine. So I’d say that it IS part of that patch of soil, and does indeed reflect that terroir. I know of other vineyards which do the same.

Just because that section of the vineyard had been infected with Brett, doesn’t make it terrior. It is easily transferable to other sections, vineyards and wineries, and therefore not reflective of any individual site.

John, this brettiness does not transfer. It stays in that section of zin and NEVER shows up in anything around it. Even racking the bretty wine out the barrels and refilling them with zin from a different section DOES NOT result in that 2nd lot becoming infected.

Sorry if this does not meet your notion of how brett behaves, but this is the reality of the situation. Instead of dismissing the idea of brett being part of a terroir (and I know they don’t teach this at Davis), maybe one could open one’s mind to the idea, the possibility even, that this could occur.

There is an explanation for this, we just don’t know it yet. That’s what makes it so interesting, right?

-Hank

Hank,
Have you ever had this tested? Maybe it isn’t brettanomyces. It could be something invloving a low level sulfide issue, disquising itself as brett.? What are the specific characterists you find in the wine from this block? Just curious.

If you put wine with brett in a barrel, that barrel will infect the next wine that goes into it. Please someone correct me if I’m wrong here.

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

John, in short - a nice background of leathery poo.

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

Oh, and I’m not saying this sort of phenomenon is common - I don’t think it is. I can only think of one other site which I have experienced it fairly regularly. Most brett is indeed cellar/hygiene related. Just not always.

I used to find that discomforting. Now I think its pretty cool, (cuz I can control it to some extent, I guess).

[Mike_Officer]

I know your strong belief in science, Mike, but science has been proven wrong again and again and again and…

And people used to believe the world was flat! But whatever. I find it amusing that you think I have a strong belief in science, especially when I have no background in science. No, what I have a strong belief in is fact. Before I was to claim that we have a block that gets Brett every year because it’s in the vineyard, I would want to prove that to myself, that it indeed comes from the vineyard and not somewhere else. But of course, we’re talking wine. It’s probably the only beverage in the world that is so steeped in non-factual information and “romantic” notions.

[Hank_Beckmeyer]

science does not necessarily equal fact. And we do not know all the facts.

Anyway, its just an observation.

[Bruce_G]

@Mike Officer

It could simply be that the fruit from that particular area is supportive of Brett growth, hence a Brett bloom every year…

Hence, it has nothing to do with terroir.

Mike:

Help me out here.
You laid out in succinct terms how the presence of Brett-related effects could be linked to a specific terroir, and then conclude that it has nothing to do with terroir… ???

Cheers,

[Bruce_G]

I’ve followed Cornelissen’s work pretty much from the beginning.
The wine market here in Japan has always been supportive of the worldwide “natural wine” movement (please don’t ask me for a definition). And Frank’s wife is Japanese. So the wines have been available here from the beginning, in quantity. I’ve got a good bit of his wine in my cellar, and I figure I’ve had just about every release he’s distributed in every vintage, multiple times.
He has also been the focus of much ink in the Japanese wine press, both interviews and in-depth reportage (the wine press here being as detail-oriented as any I’ve ever seen). So I think I have a decent feel for what he’s about.

Adding all of this up, my impressions are…
-He’s a very talented winemaker, extraordinarily passionate about what he does.
-The questions posed by his work and his wines are important ones, and I encourage every serious student of wine to ponder them long and hard, resisting the tendency to make snap judgements.
-I find the philosophy that informs his work to be utterly compelling.
-The overwhelming majority of the wines he has produced over the years have been, to my palate, damn near undrinkable.

All IMHO, of course.

Regards,

[John_Cabot]

@Bruce G

He’s a very talented winemaker, extraordinarily passionate about what he does. The overwhelming majority of the wines he has produced over the years have been, to my palate, damn near undrinkable.

[Bruce_G]

@John Cabot

@Bruce G

He’s a very talented winemaker, extraordinarily passionate about what he does. The overwhelming majority of the wines he has produced over the years have been, to my palate, damn near undrinkable.

And I meant every word of it.