That was my read as well. Must be some new or nearby vines that aren’t up to snuff.
So these notes match the notes for the Good Decisions that they had up, which I passed on. The reference to Antonio’s quote “monumental” matches to VHR Vine Hill Ranch. The vintner is last name Wolf (Wolfe). Finally I decoded one. I picked up a case. Hoping they arent sub par grapes
VHR is in Oakville not Diamond Mountain. It has to be Kinsman — that’s a direct quote from Galloni’s review — the last sentence of 18 Rhad.
It’s certainly not going to be up to the same standard as the fruit harvested for their own production - they have a decent sized waiting list and even if they didn’t - speaking as a buyer - I’d gladly buy more than 3 bottles if offered (which would preserve the “mystique” of the waiting list snd still make them more money). But it’s still a very nice source and the price point on WA telegraphs that it should be one of their best NDA wines.
They haven’t released 18 Diamond Mountain or Yountville yet, but $350 would be a decent price hike, so that’s the only detail that’s not a perfect match. Probably does go for $350+ on the secondary/retail market though.
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Agree w all of this
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Actually, now I’m not sure. VHR isn’t in Diamond Mtn
Thanks much. Sorry for the missed ID
I’m told it’s not Kinsman juice. Might be Reverie fruit, as it’s the same site as Kinsman Eades Rhadamanthus but am told it is not any excess Kinsman juice sold off. However, I dont think Reverie is sold at $350 and neither is Kinsman. Kinsman is also not sold out as they haven’t sold the 2018 yet. The marketing verbiage is pretty tricky here. It just says the same site as some other wine but not really any other details. Frankly that could be the whole AVA if you wanted to be super vague. I was thinking Hall Rainin is sold at $350 in Diamond Mountain District.
“Wow wine” quote lines up with a Moleworth quote on the 2018 Rhad from a profile he did on them in WS, too.
Wine Spectator quotes also line up for the vineyard source:
Wine Access says: "Thanks to the more famous wine that’s made from this site, the estate has been called “one of the most exciting new Cabernet projects in Napa, period,” by Wine Spectator. The current vintage of the estate’s 2018 Cabernet was hailed, “In a word: monumental” in its 100-point Vinous review and as “an absolute wow wine” by Spectator.
From Wine Spectator 5/5/21 profile on Kinsman project:
“The 2018 Diamond Mountain District Rhadamanthus ($265, 125 cases, 77 percent Cabernet Sauvignon, 20 percent Cabernet Franc, 3 percent Petit Verdot) is similarly dark and winey as the other bottlings, but is different in its mouthfeel. It’s even more structured, with a boldly tannic framework. But it also has more fruit to accommodate that, with dense currant, fig and boysenberry paste flavors backed with lots of anise, apple wood and loads of rich, dark earth. The finish just doesn’t quit, sporting broad and racy tannins encased in layers and layers of rich, fat dark fruit. It’s an absolute wow wine.”
“The result is wines that stand out for their sense of place and vibrant energy amid a crowded field of well-made Napa Cabernets. This is one of the most exciting new Cabernet projects in Napa, period.”
Attempting to read between these lines - “thanks to the more famous wine that’s made from this site” - agree with other posters that this is fruit from the source vineyard, rather than excess fruit from Kinsman.
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Does anyone know who is the actual winemaker for the WA NDA wines? Same one every time, or different depending on the project?
If I recall correctly, somebody had mentioned a workaround for the discount code order issue but I can’t find it. I’m having the issue now. Does anyone know what the workaround is?
2019 Yesterday not looking good from Wellesely:
hmmm…bought 4 for fall…maybe I should cancel and switch over to the Wolfe…
Its only 1 review but if anyone else tried…let us know…
I think they have a group of regulars plus others who come in an out. Sometimes they make it clear who the winemaker is (either by stating the name or giving enough clues to deduce it), but mostly they don’t. Then there are the NDA wines made from surplus juice, presumably made by the source winery’s own team. Here’s an announcement from a couple of years ago about some of the winemakers they work with -
Your question raises questions I have too - not just about who makes the wine but what’s actually in the bottle and how much of it is out there. I’m a fan of their NDAs. A few duds, but some real winners.
The cheeky “nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more” wordsmithing and puzzle hunt is fun for us, and gives them a huge amount of wiggle room - they get to lay out the clues, then we reach our own conclusions, which they neither confirm nor deny. But compared to Cam’s listings for DN NDA wines, the WA listings lack a great deal of basic info.
Curious to get others thoughts on this - and please correct me if any of my assumptions are wrong!
Lots of questions. Here are a few that bug me:
(Comparing DN and WA wines labeled “Cabernet Sauvignon” for simplicity).
Varietal/blend:
Minimum 75% of the grapes must be CS.
DN
Lists blend for almost all wines. E.g. N.66 Napa Valley: 78% Cabernet, 13% Merlot, 6% Petite Verdot, 2% Malbec, 1% Cabernet Franc; N. 80 Napa Valley Reserve 90% Cabernet Sauvignon, 6% Malbec, 3% Petit Verdot, and 2% Cabernet Franc.
WA
Hit or miss. E.g. 2019 Moundsman St Helena is 97% CS, 3% Merlot; 2018 Moundsman is 90% CS, 5%CF, 5%PV, 2018 Yesterday Napa 91% CS, 9% PV, but no blends listed for 2018 Good Decisions, 2018 Wolfe Grade, 2019 Ringer, 2019 Yesterday.
For what its worth, the blend for 2017 Radio Silence Napa, “sourced from a 100pt estate,” is 79% Cabernet Sauvignon, 7% Petite Sirah, 7% Charbono, 4% Zinfandel, 2% Merlot, and 1% Petit Verdot. If 18% of my NDA CS is PS, Zin, and Charbono, I’d like to know.
AVA
85% minimum to get the AVA.
DN
Almost obsessively transparent, even their Napa AVAs are broken down.
N.22 2018 Napa Cab
" a collection of hillside vineyard sites from some of Napa’s top AVA’s.
41% Napa Valley (hillside vineyard just below Atlas Peak AVA)
39% Atlas Peak AVA
11% Calistoga AVA
5% Pritchard Hill AVA
4% Howell Mountain
N.66 Napa Cab:
I sourced this “Napa Valley” Cabernet from a Stags Leap winery and, after one whiff, thought they were just trying to protect the appellation by selling it as “Napa Valley”. It smelled exactly like Stags Leap Cabernet - inky in the glass with aromas of graphitic black cherry and plum backed by blackberry jam and fantastic tannins. I asked the winemaker if they were holding out on me and was promptly sent a very specific appellation breakout:
73.58% Stags Leap
22.44% Yountville
3.98% Carneros
N. 80 2018 Napa Reserve Cab:
“A mix of hillside fruit split evenly between Calistoga and Saint Helena”
WA
The AVA in the WA description frequently does not match the AVA on the bottle. DN explains why a wine has a Napa AVA by listing its component parts. WA provides no explanation for why a single vineyard sourced wine carries a more generic Napa AVA.
2019 Ringer - “NDA Protected Howell Mountain Classic” with a single vineyard source. AVA on bottle is Napa Valley.
2018 Yesterday - “Apogee of classic Oakville Terroir.” AVA on bottle is Napa Valley
2019 Yesterday - “this top shelf Rutherford Cabernet.” AVA on bottle is Napa Valley.
2018 Radio Silence - “an Oakville coup from a cult vineyard.” AVA on bottle is Napa Valley
This is the most puzzling discrepancy for me, as WA hugely pushes the $xxx source for $xx. That’s obviously not the case, but the reasonable expectation is that the wine you’re buying was at least made from grapes grown on the premises - surplus fruit, young vines, etc. The optimist in me hopes the NDA requires the Napa AVA. The cynic in me wonders if they can’t hit 85% with the source winery or the source winery’s AVA, and they’re blending in other wines from elsewhere in Napa. The realist in me knows that even if they hit the 85%, there’s another 15% to play around with.
CASE PRODUCTION:
DN clearly states number of cases produced.
WA does not state number of cases produced.
Optimist - the NDA keeps it secret. Cynic - they’ve gotta make a profit somehow.
OVERALL:
For NDA’s, it’s really about past performance and present trust. I suppose everyone has a personal limit on how much information you don’t need to know; and how much faith you’re willing to put into what the seller won’t tell you, but you hope is true.
Cam/DN is the gold standard for clarity and transparency. WA has made some terrific wines, and their gamification marketing hook is fun, but I find them just a bit suspect in a way I never do with DN. It wouldn’t kill their business for them to be more forthcoming about basic information.
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Pretty killer deal on the Bonacchi Brunello, $24 per bottle on a case before % discounts.
2019 Radio Silence is up. Sounds like ZD estate (again).
“Rumor has it that Hollywood A-listers use numerous credit cards to get around the winery’s strict bottle limit in order to score the estate’s most in-demand bottling, an icon that goes for four digits per three-pack.”
Basically a direct quote from the Forbes article for ZD when the source for 2019 Yesterday was being discussed.
It’s got to be ZD I agree. Trick though is ZD has a WIDE range of cabs – from the basic to the reserve to Abacus. The WA writeup says the “backbone” of the offering is from the small ZD Rutherford vineyard but not sure what that means, and not clear that vineyard is the best of their sources. I’ll pass.
I also find it disingenuous for them to promote Radio Silence 2019 by saying the Radio Silence 2018 was so well received. It was an entirely different wine – except it happens also to be from Napa and a red wine!
Agree–I forgot the source for 2018 RS but I recall the 2017 being Realm. Seems like the source changes between vintages. The “Yesterday” and “Moundsman” labels are more examples of that.
Wine Spies joins the NDA game…I really dont need any more NDA 2018 cab…But looks to be same marketing price as Wine Access. Thumbs up or down from anyone??
given the comment about “midas touch”, I’m going with TRB and Outpost as the source
Maybe we can hear about how the wines actually smell and taste? These are not investment grade bottles. We will drink them. You buy a full case of DN. That’s a commitment. At least you have the Pacific Coast to choose from. If you want to explore some great offshore real estate, you are out of luck. Lotta tough weather and fires last couple years. I prefer smoke in scotch.
I am not always interested in waiting 10 years or longer for a wine to develop. As DN is a baby, anything you need to lay down is going to take patience. So you might tell us which wines you like now, which might be nice in 2-3 years, what might be looking good in 7-10. Are any DN wines 7-10? Or are they “ready to drink” with big tannin and high alcohol with a ton of oak?
Wine Access has an interesting group- Master of Wine, Master Sommelier, and a few others. They seem to offer wines from around the world. The folks who write descriptions make everything romantic and over the top. I might look at facts and their structure charts to judge what I might like trying. They do offer some interesting educational “club” selections. Those are going to be decent, as ACTUAL professionals with very rare credentials will want to keep their reputations intact.
Seems we might be well served by descriptions and comments about the quality and structure of wines in the bottles rather than “exactly” where they might have been sourced and blended from.
I happen to like numbered bottles. The vintner knows which barrel that bottle came from. There will be variance.
These “NDA” wines are simply random assemblies of grapes from a particular year. I suppose they aren’t NV wines, but at some point, you aren’t going to taste a “Vertical” any of these oversupply or not quite barrels or bottles.
Relax. Enjoy your wine. Buying 25 cases to sample a mere 25 wines may be your thing. To me, that’s a lot of drinking. I sometimes wonder if those mega case buyers have had 3 divorces. Give the wine a try. See if you get along with it. Maybe you see trying a bottle every year. Two cases later and it is a “silver” anniversary at 25.
While you’re at it, let us know how these wines taste now. What do you anticipate in 3-5 years? Are you looking forward to that case?