Wine Pricing at Auction - MENTAL

[AlexS]

Shall we start a discussion about who pays the most in payroll taxes? State & local taxes?

How does that saying go - figures never lie but liars figure?

[John_Morris]

I will say, you should always be a bit leery of a report that claims US taxes (even if income) are “very progressive” if it only takes into account income taxes and not capital gains (which is where the real disparity, both on rates and actual amounts arises).

To be clear, not aimed at you John - the numbers aren’t wrong.

In this context, the figures clearly capture capital gains taxes, since those are part of federal income tax. You’re distinguishing between earned income and capital gains. FYI, that report also gives the average tax rates for different groups.

[Subu_Ramachandran]

Before this heads to Politics. Here’s the GOAT explaining why the ‘Rich’ are not ‘hoarding’ money. Fast forward to the 36 minute 20 second mark

Pretty incredible how in 1979 the most popular daytime television show, the Phil Donahue show, devoted 2 full episodes to a Q+A session with the greatest economist of his time, Milton Friedman, and got huge ratings. People wanted to learn and think. Can anyone see that happening today?

Clearly few people here missed the financial crisis to understand the failures of monetarism. Yes, controlling the supply of money can get you a grip on “inflation” (consumer based or asset based inflation). The failure comes in defining the process of money, many ways it can be created and the inability to control it.

“Why do economists exists? To make weathermen feel better about their science and predictions!”

[Greg_K]

I will say, you should always be a bit leery of a report that claims US taxes (even if income) are “very progressive” if it only takes into account income taxes and not capital gains (which is where the real disparity, both on rates and actual amounts arises).

To be clear, not aimed at you John - the numbers aren’t wrong.

In this context, the figures clearly capture capital gains taxes, since those are part of federal income tax. You’re distinguishing between earned income and capital gains. FYI, that report also gives the average tax rates for different groups.

Well, yes There have also been mentions of payroll, etc. I just think whenever you read that the US tax system is “very progressive”, it rings very odd to me. It can be sometimes, it’s often not. Anyway, I’ll end my part of this digression.

[Michael_Martin]

I am going to chalk a bunch of this fun up to boredom. I was on Winebid last night and there was a whole lot of activity on what I was bidding on / watching.

As far as taxes, I have paid six figures in taxes every year for the last 8-10 years. I am open to learning how to hoard my wealth and avoid taxes. Because trust me I have had better minds then mine try and help me with tax efficiency and I still pay a lot.

[Nathan_Smyth]

MENTAL

Staying Home right now, you have people bidding out of boredom.

I am hearing that the “Social Butterfly” [to include “The Queen Bee”] personality type is having enormous difficulty adjusting to social distancing, to the point that many of them are starting to have nervous breakdowns - apparently solitude is extraordinarily stressful for those psychological profiles.

PS: On the financial side of things, I’ve been trying to tell people that the price of merely swallowable Chardonnay has headed off into the stratosphere.

The entry point must be at least $75 a bottle [because I haven’t found it at prices lower than that], and I wouldn’t be surprised if the entry point were now up around $125 to $150 [but I’ll never know, because I’m not going to spend that much money to learn where the entry point really is].

[jason_stein]

PS: On the financial side of things, I’ve been trying to tell people that the price of merely swallowable Chardonnay has headed off into the stratosphere.

The entry point must be at least $75 a bottle [because I haven’t found it at prices lower than that], and I wouldn’t be surprised if the entry point were now up around $125 to $150 [but I’ll never know, because I’m not going to spend that much money to learn where the entry point really is].

Here we go…

[Jay_Miller]

Here we go…

at least he’s consistent…

[R_M_Kriete]

As far as taxes, I have paid six figures in taxes every year for the last 8-10 years. I am open to learning how to hoard my wealth and avoid taxes. Because trust me I have had better minds then mine try and help me with tax efficiency and I still pay a lot.

Funny. I had a buddy who told his accountant he was going to fire him. Accountant (not realizing he was only joking) asked why? Buddy said, “Because I keep hearing about all the “loopholes” the rich use to avoid paying taxes. After looking at my tax payments the last 5 years, I figured you are just lousy at your job.”

[Michael_Martin]

As far as taxes, I have paid six figures in taxes every year for the last 8-10 years. I am open to learning how to hoard my wealth and avoid taxes. Because trust me I have had better minds then mine try and help me with tax efficiency and I still pay a lot.

Funny. I had a buddy who told his accountant he was going to fire him. Accountant (not realizing he was only joking) asked why? Buddy said, “Because I keep hearing about all the “loopholes” the rich use to avoid paying taxes. After looking at my tax payments the last 5 years, I figured you are just lousy at your job.”

My thoughts exactly.

[Ian_Dorin]

Look, I get it, these are only a few data points, likely some idiosyncrasy w/Boisson, not terribly indicative of the true “market”

Quite the opposite. I believe Auction is the true market. The buyers set the price.

[jason_stein]

Look, I get it, these are only a few data points, likely some idiosyncrasy w/Boisson, not terribly indicative of the true “market”

Quite the opposite. I believe Auction is the true market. The buyers set the price.

Agreed. And I don’t think anybody is pretending that it’s an efficient market!

[Greg_K]

Look, I get it, these are only a few data points, likely some idiosyncrasy w/Boisson, not terribly indicative of the true “market”

Quite the opposite. I believe Auction is the true market. The buyers set the price.

That’s true for that specific transaction certainly, but it’s hard to extrapolate for the entire market unless it’s a very “liquid” wine. (See what I did there?)

[Nathan_V]

Before this heads to Politics. Here’s the GOAT explaining why the ‘Rich’ are not ‘hoarding’ money. Fast forward to the 36 minute 20 second mark

Pretty incredible how in 1979 the most popular daytime television show, the Phil Donahue show, devoted 2 full episodes to a Q+A session with the greatest economist of his time, Milton Friedman, and got huge ratings. People wanted to learn and think. Can anyone see that happening today?

And btw for those who have thoughts about wealth inequality, taxation, regulation but haven’t watched the 10 part ‘Free To Choose’ series from 1980, Milton Friedman debating people from both sides of the political spectrum, you may learn a whole lot from what things were like 40 years ago.

Milton Friedman on Donahue #2 - YouTube

That’s great and all but I’m pretty sure that economists don’t consider Friedman to be top of the heap as an intellectual anymore. And there is data (Friedman never had much use for data) on the other side of wealth hoarding that I find pretty compelling. But hey, I’m not a finance guy, just an academic statistician.

[p_raghib]

The top 10% in this country Own it and can pretty much buy whatever-the-hell they want since they are so steenking rich.
That’s the sum of it.

The top 1% in the US also account for approximately 40% of the taxes collected. I guess that they aren’t paying their “fair” share.

Which taxes are we talking about? And are you sure we want to go down this road? You might want to think about that before defending the upper percentiles with politically-charged canards, which is exactly what you posted - a politically-charged canard.

That said, if you’re the dude who bid 1k+ on the 2004 Leroy, sorry for being a bearer of bad news!

Alex,

What would give you any indication that I am “the dude!?” that bid on the 04 Leroy and what would be the bad news?

Personally, I think the negoc Leroy wines are the most overpriced burgundy being sold today. As far as the 04 goes, I bought it on release for $80-$120 and then stopped. Lalou’s husband (Marcel) died in the summer of 04 and she didn’t want to put anytime in the vineyard or cellar so she had most of it heaped into one cuvee and supposedly never tasted it.

As far as a “politically charged canard” goes I’d be happy to go down that road with you. As far as politics go, I have voted for republicans and democrats so I am not exactly on some corner of the political spectrum. Not that you asked for a resume, I spent nearly three years in VISTA which paid off my school loans-I wasn’t buying $1,200 Leroy when my income was about $400/month. I will admit that it bothers me that there seems to be a significant % of America that now wants everything for free. It amuses me when I hear people that don’t pay any income taxes call wealthy people “greedy” because those “greedy people” aren’t paying “their fair share”. Don’t get me wrong there are plenty of things wrong with our tax code. I can’t understand how carried-interest is still allowed, why real-estate investors can avoid cap gains with a 1031 exchange, but if I sell ABC stock and buy XYZ I have to pay capital gains taxes.

If you want to claim the fact that the top 10% don’t pay the majority of taxes we can go down that road-I will enjoy the trip.

I’m not sure why you seem so angry, maybe you should have a glass of wine.

[AlexS]

Not angry and not looking to make this any more political than it already is; regardless, your initial post reflects an obtuse, single-sided perspective and let’s just leave it at that (again, payroll taxes, as one example?).

[p_raghib]

Not angry and not looking to make this any more political than it already is; regardless, your initial post reflects an obtuse, single-sided perspective and let’s just leave it at that (again, payroll taxes, as one example?).

Obtuse?

Another great example of being emboldened by the keyboard, when I suspect you wouldn’t speak to someone like that in person…unless you really are that classless.

Now I will have to look up the “ignore” function on here.

[AlexS]

Sounds good Paul but you seem pretty angry - perhaps have a glass of wine first?

[Ian_Dorin]

Look, I get it, these are only a few data points, likely some idiosyncrasy w/Boisson, not terribly indicative of the true “market”

Quite the opposite. I believe Auction is the true market. The buyers set the price.

That’s true for that specific transaction certainly, but it’s hard to extrapolate for the entire market unless it’s a very “liquid” wine. (See what I did there?)

I was merely keeping it within the context of the wines that he was mentioning. That door swings both ways though. Simply because Bryant Family offers their wines at whatever the price is (like $600 now?), Auction results tell us that the wine has a fair market value of $250-$350 per bottle. That was really the reason I brought it up, not just the examples where people pay top dollar, it’s where someone takes a bath too.

[Greg_K]

Quite the opposite. I believe Auction is the true market. The buyers set the price.

That’s true for that specific transaction certainly, but it’s hard to extrapolate for the entire market unless it’s a very “liquid” wine. (See what I did there?)

I was merely keeping it within the context of the wines that he was mentioning. That door swings both ways though. Simply because Bryant Family offers their wines at whatever the price is (like $600 now?), Auction results tell us that the wine has a fair market value of $250-$350 per bottle. That was really the reason I brought it up, not just the examples where people pay top dollar, it’s where someone takes a bath too.

Yeah, it makes sense for Boisson Vaudot, and I agree in some cases the auction price can be a very good indicator rather than a few bottles sitting on the same shelf on Wine Searcher. But sometimes it only takes two assholes in an otherwise confused room to bid up a price