Wine Experts/Music Experts

WINE TALK
1

They’re all friggin’ clueless.
Just like the “experts” can’t tell the difference between Pavie vs. Colgin, LaLandonne vs. SQN, YellowTail vs, LeMontrachet; the so-called music “experts” don’t know jack-$hit, either:

NYTimes: ViolinExperts

Interesting article.
Tom

2

Blind tasting
Blind listening

The Great Humblers

3

A lot of wine lovers seem to follow the critics blindly without questioning their abilities, e.g. the 04 reds and whites and the 06 white burgundies. I have learned over the years that the truth is often what the majority believes.

4

Very interesting article. I don’t know enough about classical music or high-end instruments to say how much the results really upset expectations, though. What is it about a Stradivarius that classical music connoisseurs really value? If it is just about the sound, you would expect to see a violinist’s use of a Stradivarius promoted as a selling point for a recording, but except for the genre of period-instrument recordings (which is just about historic value and not any claim to acoustical superiority), I don’t know of any recordings that make a big deal about using particular instruments. This would seem to suggest that it’s not something that listeners put a very high priority on. But perhaps my impression is mistaken and someone with deeper experience can correct me.

5

Bingo…we have a winner here. [winner.gif]

As Keith mentions, it’s seldom a point mentioned on recordings that a great artist is playing a Strad, though you’ll
sometimes see it stated in a program at a live performance. But it’s certainly in the folklore that a Strad or Guarnari
produces great music and can’t be replicated w/ modern instruments.
Tom

6

Weekdays I listen to "Performance Today’ from 9-11am, the rest of the day I listen to KHFM. At dinner I select a classical CD to play while we’re eating. On Saturdays I listen to KHFM, especially for the opera from the Met. On Sundays I listen to Dorothy Bernstein’s Classical Music for a Sunday Morning from 6-12am on KANW, then I switch to KHFM. On weekends I also select a CD to play while we’re eating

7

Seems to me one potential difference is, while it’s impractical to do a complete analysis of wines that might explain why one is “better” than the other, it should be pretty easy to measure the tonal qualities of different violins and demonstrate how they are similar or different.

8

Define ‘better’.

In the case of the Strad, the rarity is a huge draw. It’s a direct, physical connection to the times when the music we so revere was being created.

9

Easy one, Rick. “Better” is a 94 on MaryHadALittleLamb on a finest Sears&Roebuck violin, whilst not “better” is a 93 of Rachmaninoff ViolinConcerto
on a Strad. Don’t get no simpler than that!!! [stirthepothal.gif]

But you make a good point, Rick. The Strad is a direct/physical connection to those times. Just as when I try the '08 RidgeMonteBello
is a direct connect to the legendary '70 MonteBello, Paul’s first Cab. So I tend to like the '08, probably more than I should.
Tom

10

Absolutely!
Mebbee because the Rachmaninoff Violin Concerto doesn’t exist?

11

NPR link has the same piece played on two instruments, one a Strad. Even over bad speakers it is easy to hear that one is deeper and has more layers.

12

Just because one is labeled an expert doesn’t make one an expert.

One of the individuals involved sells new or newer instruments. The comment section by string players provided interesting insights.

The comments reminded me of this enterprise relating to wine.

13

I spend a lot of my life in the company of violins, some of them great, and there is a huge difference between the best and the rest. It is the carrying power of the great old Italians which is unmatchable, something that isn’t always obvious under the violinist’s ear, which probably explains these results. Nobody really knows whether it is a function of the age of the instruments, the age and quality of the wood of which they were made or of now-forgotten manufacturing techniques. This was a very silly study indeed. While there are certainly poor Strads etc. there are no emperor’s new clothes with these instruments.

14

For me, this is the most poignant part of the article:

Even experienced players who have not lived with a great violin don’t realize what they are hearing or doing when they first play a great instrument,” he said. “Second, Strads and del Gesùs vary tremendously in sound characteristics and quality, so generalizations are hard to make from a few cases, in any event.

I equate it to your favorite pair of worn 501s. I’m more comfortable in them, though a replica might be hard to differentiate in a blind study. In reality, we don’t live bubbles, so all my senses are used to formulate my impressions. I’d rather play my ‘77 Musicman Stingray than any bass they manufacture today, because of my attachment to it, they way it feels and the comfort level I have when I pick it up. And, well, it sounds fuckin’ great!

15

I will add my musician’s ear and voice to giving a +1 to this comment.
It is a silly,impatient and incomplete study.The carrying quality of aged wood string instruments,especially created by well respected and reknowned Master craftsmen, is certainly a characteristic of a superior instrument for many reasons,and yet I would think that would be noticeable easily from the ear as well.Also certainly,there are excellent instruments being crafted today and during the last several decades,but it is again silly to equate this to blind tasting…especially if it involves the 89 Monfortino or Rachmaninoff Violin Concerto…

World famous string players don’t lust and scrape to attain these instruments because they are part of a popular worldwide musical instrument hysteria,rather because they impart an altogether ethereal,magical tone and quality to the music vibrating from wood and string…

16

You put David Chan or Joshua Bell playing a Strad next to me blind and then have him play a stock violin. I can assure you that I can tell the difference. The responsiveness and depth of those great instruments can not be replicated. Recorded music is often compressed in spectrum to bring the primary instrument forward in the recording. It can be difficult in recordings to tell the difference between a great instrument and one that is merely very good because of this. The person playing the instrument will always know the difference however. It leads to a better performance IMHO.
FWIW.

17

I’ll refrain from too much commentary, but please note that the ‘researcher’ was teaming up with a contemporary violin maker - a very fine one, I might add, but nonetheless…

18

To reiterate, there is no Rachmaninoff violin concerto.

There are a lot of similarites between wine appreciation and music appreciation. there are schlock forms of both, and very refined and high level forms. there are also very similar pitfalls with each. You can pick a crummy strad or set the comparison in a room with crummy accoustics, just as you can pick an off vintage to compare with an on vintage of another wine, or taste with innappropriate glasses, etc.

19

Well said, and yes, there is no Rachmaninoff violin concerto. Would be pretty sweet, though! The Sonata for Cello and Piano (do NOT call it a cello sonata or you’ll never get a pianist to play it with you) is pretty fantastic…

20

A great instrument is a great instrument and you know immediately when you play it.

And most audience members know when they hear it.