Wine Cellar Construction Questions

[johngonzales]

I’m a g.c. . Feel free to post more specific questions.

Seems like $19k is a lot, even at L.A. pricing. Get some more bids. Beyond what AndrewH layed out, there’s always some electrical to be done. Fwiw, I think a lot of people don’t have enough light in their cellars. I suggest an decent maximum of lumens for working light, then use a dimmer to be able to set it at less than max for general use. Also, even if you don’t forsee using them, toss a couple of outlets in.

Skip the framed floor at 10 feet below grade. From the data I’ve seen, in a northern climate like yours, yout hear gain will be minimal at deeper than 9 feet. Use a vapor barrier like Latipoxy, Redgard, or something like NobleSeal if you have cracks in your floor.

To me used racking and cooling is like a used couch. Very little value and market for it. If the person tried to sell it onthe open market there would be very little demand. The racking requires disassembly and reassembly, plus is configured ideally for one particular celler. Considering the utility already used by the seller, and the lack of a market, I doubt it is sellable at more than 30% of it’s original price. The cooling unit might be easier to sell and may have an application for more cellars, but it would be risky to assume that it will last more than another five years, and there’s a risk that it craps out in two years. These things aren’t built to last as long as a whole home unit. 70% of it’s value is gone as well.

[George_Hejna]

$19K is stupid expensive. All they are doing is building an overly insulated box. Materials for wood, insulation, drywall and vapor barrier +a nice well insulated door would be about $1500 in my estimate depending on how fancy the door is. I built mine it is very easy to do with basic construction knowledge and some good tools.

I will build yours for $10K + materials.

George

[Brian_Gilp]

I have a passive cellar in MD that has exterior walls that face North and West and the top two feet or so is above grade. There is one small window in the north facing wall. The ceiling and walls are insulated but the floor is concrete which I painted. I have not had any condensation issues. My temp swings from 55 in the winter to 64 in the summer +/- measured at about 6 foot high by the door. The temp swings are less and cooler closer to the floor and opposite from the door. Unless you want to keep a constant temp, I doubt you really need a cooling unit.

[Chris_Kravitz]

@jan.brekke

No issues with basement smell. The basement is around 80% finished and we use a dehumidifier in the summer. I just got the initial proposal back from the contractor and was disappointed by the price - so far the estimate is around $19k without the racking/cooling unit. In our area we don’t have dedicated wine cellar companies, so you take your chance with a contractor.

Last night I was perusing Craigslist and found this “wine room” for sale locally. It is around two years old and selling for around $2k. http://www.finewinecabinets.com/wine-room-1300. It is making me wonder if it is worth the extra $20-25k to build the cellar!

It’s hard to estimate a job behind a screen, but $19k seems crazy. Can you post some pics of the space you have in mind? Does that include door, floor, electrical?

A used “wine room” is an easy pass. Good chance the floors are rotten underneath and the panels are often glued together making for an ugly/problematic box. The racking usually is crap as well.

[Chris_Kravitz]

@Karen Troisi

Do you have “basement smell” - if so I would insulate the floor just to prevent that smell in the wine cellars. We have built two temperature-controlled wine rooms and in both we built-up the floor with 2x6 framing. If you are using 2x6 on the walls (which I would recommend for strength and depth for insulation) building up the floor should not add a lot of money or time to the project. If you do decide to build up the floor, I would recommend wood flooring rather than tile to eliminate any cracking due to the weight of the racking and bottles on the sub-floor. We found installing wood flooring to be much easier than putting down tile so you may want to consider even if you don’t build up the floor. Lumber Liquidators (no affiliation) offers a broad range of engineered products in all price ranges. (BTW when I say we built two cellars - we actually did the construction and I am very proud to say I installed the flooring.)

By building up the floor I believe you are inviting mold. I don’t believe wood (real or engineered) belongs below grade, especially in a wine cellar.

2X6’s for strength? All it’s holding is some insulation and drywall. The only reason for 2X6’s would be if the cellar will be exposed to extreme temp (ie. garage or next to hot furnace) to allow for additional insulation.

[jan.brekke]

I will try to post some pics of the space and more details later.
I do appreciate all of the advice!

[johngonzales]

As C.said the depth (2x4 vs 2x6) would only need to vary to 2x6 to accomodate insulation. Strength-wise a 2x4 at 16" o.c. can at times even support an entire building’s second floor. You don’t need more than that for strength. Needing to to go to batt r-19 on the walls would be the reason to upsize to 2x6 wall framing. If you do spray insulation in this appl., 2x6 not necessary.

[AndrewH]

@johngonzales

Strength-wise a 2x4 at 16" o.c. can at times even support an entire building’s second floor.

Yeah, but that’s under normal load assumptions used in construction - usually 40 psf. A bottle of wine weights ~3 pounds, and you can stack 3-4 on a square foot of floor, multiplied by the height of the racking, which could be 20 bottles high with 7 feet of rack. You’re looking at 250 psf from such a load throughout the cellar.

[Dale_Bowers]

@AndrewH

@johngonzales

Strength-wise a 2x4 at 16" o.c. can at times even support an entire building’s second floor.

Yeah, but that’s under normal load assumptions used in construction - usually 40 psf. A bottle of wine weights ~3 pounds, and you can stack 3-4 on a square foot of floor, multiplied by the height of the racking, which could be 20 bottles high with 7 feet of rack. You’re looking at 250 psf from such a load throughout the cellar.

True, but that load would be on the floor (concrete slab) not the walls.

[johngonzales]

@Dale Bowers

@AndrewH

@johngonzales

Strength-wise a 2x4 at 16" o.c. can at times even support an entire building’s second floor.

Yeah, but that’s under normal load assumptions used in construction - usually 40 psf. A bottle of wine weights ~3 pounds, and you can stack 3-4 on a square foot of floor, multiplied by the height of the racking, which could be 20 bottles high with 7 feet of rack. You’re looking at 250 psf from such a load throughout the cellar.

True, but that load would be on the floor (concrete slab) not the walls.

Yep. A 2x4 wall could probably support the weight of a cellar above it. The 40 psf live load is just a minimum standard plus a safety factor and considers that load spread out over the entire membrane above. Most of the load would be concentrated at the perimeter of the room. The load at the center would cause the most problem, but that would stress the center of the floor joist span more than the walls. Distributed by the subfloor and the floor joists a double plated 2x4 wall can carry a lot of load. But none of that really matters as hardly anyone ever puts the cellar on an upper floor. In the cellar, as someone said, the live (wine) load is on the slab. The walls will just bear the weight of the drywall and the ceiling assembly which is not much at all. 2x6s don’t cost much more and only take up 2" more at each wall, but if the insulation doesn’t make them necessary, then they’re not essential.

[GregT]

If you’re in the basement, as mentioned above, you’re not building load-bearing walls. You can use metal studs. Much easier.

Listen to what Chris and John have to say. They know this stuff. $19K is ridiculous unless you’re getting something out of this world.

[AndrewH]

@johngonzales

The walls will just bear the weight of the drywall and the ceiling assembly which is not much at all. 2x6s don’t cost much more and only take up 2" more at each wall, but if the insulation doesn’t make them necessary, then they’re not essential.

I think the issue was building a subfloor of 2x6 or 2x4 where the question of load came up. Granted - the deflection of either type of board when fully supported by a slab shouldn’t be an issue. But that’s because the slab is in effect holding the load, not the boards.

[johngonzales]

@AndrewH

@johngonzales

The walls will just bear the weight of the drywall and the ceiling assembly which is not much at all. 2x6s don’t cost much more and only take up 2" more at each wall, but if the insulation doesn’t make them necessary, then they’re not essential.

I think the issue was building a subfloor of 2x6 or 2x4 where the question of load came up. Granted - the deflection of either type of board when fully supported by a slab shouldn’t be an issue. But that’s because the slab is in effect holding the load, not the boards.

Definitely. I was talking about wall framing.

As far as raising the floor, as you note the “joists” would be continually supported so the could be made of any material thickness as long as that material itself does not compress, which no wood will. You could use sleepers of 2x4 layed on their wide side (if you somehow wanted to) or even 2x2. Assuming the slab is flat. A 2x4 laid on it’s 2 edge as a joist at 16" would conceiveably still work fine if it were not supported continuosly, but rather at 24" intervals. With ply (which should be 5/8" or 3/4" for any subfloor application) on top the load gets distributed. But as Chris opines, there is a risk to the built-up wood floor, and with the minimal heat gain in the o.p.'s slab floor it isn’t necessary at all.

Btw, another thing that anyone building a cellar should do if they have ever had water infiltrate their basement or have the water heater etc there, is put a sump pump down there. It’s very cheap protection.

[Mike_Maguire]

@Brian Gilp

I have a passive cellar in MD that has exterior walls that face North and West and the top two feet or so is above grade. There is one small window in the north facing wall. The ceiling and walls are insulated but the floor is concrete which I painted. I have not had any condensation issues. My temp swings from 55 in the winter to 64 in the summer +/- measured at about 6 foot high by the door. The temp swings are less and cooler closer to the floor and opposite from the door. Unless you want to keep a constant temp, I doubt you really need a cooling unit.

This +1
Have had a passive cellar for 20+ years, no mold issues at all. Insulation and vapor barrier are key. I also have an exterior door and green board walls. I live on the water and in Wa. which you all know is humid most of the year.

[jan.brekke]

Here is a little more detail on the proposed project ( I have taken out the initial raised floor from the proposal)
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Doors: 2 Mahogany exterior doors/frames from ETO doors (we have one exit door to a small closet, which contains the water softener/sump pump)
Remove existing suspended ceiling, trim and two door units. Remove all cedar/drywall down to existing 2x4 studs. Install 1/2" drywall to exterior walls in sump room. Install a 2x4 ceiling 16" o/c. Apply 3" closed cell spray foam in ceiling, floor and walls. Install 1/2" humidity resistant green board to walls and ceilings. Apply a bonding agent and one coat skip troweled plaster to ceiling and walls. Painting of walls/ceiling. Install tile floor and vapor barrier membrane. Move racks, modify and install. Install two new doors/frames. Install Whisperkool unit/plumbing. Install low-voltage wiring. Purchase/install light fixtures. Remove existing carpet/pad.
Electrical: Remove existing lighting. Relocate existing switch to outside of cellar. Wire for 2 ceiling fixtures. Install 1 120v circuit for Whisperkool unit. Install lo-voltage wiring for rack lights.

I have found another local contractor with wine cellar experience and will have him out next week to get an estimate.
As mentioned earlier, all of the advice has been greatly appreciated.

[Cliff_Rosenberg]

Why are you insulating the floor? You are well below grade in Wisconsin, right? What temperature do you want to maintain?

[jan.brekke]

Cliff, That was a mistake. No insulation below the tiles, only a vapor barrier.
Original proposal included insulation below a raised floor, which I nixed after getting feedback from all of you.

[Mark_C]

Jan, quick question - what are the temps and humidity in the room on the coldest day in the winter and on the hottest day in the summer?

That cedar looks pretty nice as it is! This may be a silly question , but if your temps/humidity are good, have you considered just putting in racking and removing the carpet and replacing with tile or wood flooring and calling it done?

[dsGriswold]

I like the suspended look. No worry about flooding either, but you need really strong hanger bolts.

[Clint_S_Q_U_I_E_R]

@George Hejna

$19K is stupid expensive. All they are doing is building an overly insulated box. Materials for wood, insulation, drywall and vapor barrier +a nice well insulated door would be about $1500 in my estimate depending on how fancy the door is. I built mine it is very easy to do with basic construction knowledge and some good tools.

I will build yours for $10K + materials.

George

You can’t build a birdhouse + exterior door for $1500 much less a wine cellar.