Wine blog: "Should Petite Sirah be a Rhône variety?"

[Robert.Fleming]

@Lewis Dawson

LOL. I may start misusing the word in a varietal of situations just to draw corrections from Robert.

Smackdown! Bring it on!

[M.Kaplan]

@larry schaffer

Mark,

Thanks for the post. Though I am a board member, I did not write the website nor was I on the board when the decision was made to add the variety. It does appear that the wording on the site does need some tweaking (to say the least).

For those who want a little more background/history on Petite Sirah, here’s a piece written by Dennis Fife, who some of you may know:

Unusual Wines - Petite Sirah / Petite Syrah

Cheers

Thanks for the link, Larry.

By the way, in that piece, Dennis Fife states:

Today Durif is a minor variety in France and approved for A.O.C. only in Palette, a small appellation in Provence.

I’ve fond the topic of Petite Sirah in California interesting, since drinking lots of John Parducci’s PS in my youth and, particularly, since Carole Meredith made her findings known about Sean Thackrey’s Orion from Rossi Vineyard, now labeled as “California Native Red Wine.” Orion is my favorite California PS or PS-dominant wine and has been for more than 20 years.


Regarding the “Rhone Rangers,” perhaps the great Sean Thackrey put it best in an interview some years ago with the Gang of Pour:

ST ­ "… Actually, while they were organizing the whole Rhône Rangers deal I showed up at a couple of the early meetings just to express a contrary viewpoint. I like all these guys, don’t get me wrong; it’s not a hostility thing in any way, I completely like them, but I just said “You know, I really don’t think it’s a great idea starting out by saying that what you’re trying to do is to imitate something that you yourself think is being done better six thousand miles away, and then calling that imitation “authentic”. I mean, this is unclear on the concept on so many different levels. I don’t know where to start. Randall (Graham) was great, as usual ­ he immediately piped up and said: “In other words you mean it’s kind of like a 'Coat-tails du Rhône”. (laughter) I said ‘perfect!’”

[J_Diven]

@larry schaffer

Jim,

That’s a long article! Which specific quotes are we talking about here?!?!?!?

I’m talking mainly about the ones I pointed out above:

@J Diven

The author (who unfortunately seems to have passed away recently), says Rhone Rangers “… goal is to increase the public’s awareness of Rhône-style wines”. So not necessarily actual Rhone varietal wines as approved by the AOC, but Rhone ‘style’ wines whatever that means. Personally I find many, many styles of wine from the Rhone so I suppose a ‘Rhone style’ could include Tannat or Charbono, or Zinfandel, or anything else the majority of the members considered to be ‘Rhone style’.

Later in the article, he refers to PS as ‘America’s own Rhone variety’.

From Dennis Fife talking about customers trying PS and Syrah side by side - “They love the idea that America has its own Rhône variety…”

And from Ehren Jordan “In California, Petite is more Rhône-like than the vast majority of Syrahs that are made here…”

To me these all talk about RR products being rhone ‘like’ or ‘style’ (ie. imitative), vs. uniquely Californian and simply of rhone variety parentage.

[Robert.Fleming]

@M.Kaplan

I’ve fond the topic of Petite Sirah in California interesting, since drinking lots of John Parducci’s PS in my youth and, particularly, since Carole Meredith made her findings known about Sean Thackrey’s Orion from Rossi Vineyard, now labeled as “California Native Red Wine.” Orion is my favorite California PS or PS-dominant wine and has been for more than 20 years.

Sean Thackrey disagrees with Carole Meredith (in the ‘Gang of Pour’ interview you quoted): Gang of Pour - Left Coast Correspondent - Sean Thackrey

If I had to bet, I’d bet on Carole Meredith - though it’s worth noting that her opinion is based on observation (ampelography), not genetic testing.

[M.Kaplan]

Yes he does. And he also states that he may be wrong (and Carole Meredith right). In any event, I like Orion, whatever it is! If Orion isn’t PS, then my favorite PS would be that grown in Peterson Family Vineyard. But it isn’t a Rhone grape.

[jodiaz]

Larry Schaffer, thanks for defending my honor.

Tom Hill: regarding: "Well…

Post Number:#2 Postby TomHill » Mon Apr 23, 2012 11:18 am
Well…not that I would have any opinions on the subject.

“Sounds like a pretty cranky rant to me. Not sure what Jo’s association with PS exactly is, but I gather he does PR work for Foppiano, a wnry whose focus is PS.
He seems to believe that since RR does not specifically promote PS (nor do they specifically promote Syrah or Mourvedre or Viognier or…), that wineries whose focus is PS should NOT join RR, but should join PSILY instead, whose focus IS to promote PS. Perhaps the could get more bang for their buck by doing that. But he seems to want RR to disbar PS, thereby forcing those PS producers from RR and into PSILY…I guess. That is, he doesn’t want PS producers in under the RR umbrella.”

You couldn’t be more wrong, 1 by 1:

1. Wasn’t cranky. It was an honest question.
2. Association with PS: Founder and executive director for the last 10 years.
3. Association with Foppiano: Publicist for eight years, but that gig is done.
4. Regarding “He:” Last time I looked, this Jo is wearing a skirt.
5. …RR not specifically promoting PS… Could care less. They’ve got their hands full.
6. …that wineries whose focus is PS should NOT join RR, but should join PSILY instead - My, what great assumptions you’ve made. Not the case at all.
7. …But he seems to want RR to disbar PS - Okay, now I think you’re losing your mind.
8. …That is, he doesn’t want PS producers in under the RR umbrella. - Nope, now I’m sure of it. You’ve lost your mind.

LOL

After 10 years of being the executive director of, studying and reporting on PS, I know that the Rhone could care less about this variety. And…that’s okay. It has a regal father (Syrah) and a peasant mother (Peloursin). It migrated almost as soon as it was crossed by Francois Durif, and it’s not only flourished in the US, it’s now considered by my UC Davis pals as a Heritage variety. I asked the question to get discourse going. I never expected to be dissed, but I have to thank you, Tom Hill, for bringing me back to earth. My usual discourse is with people from all over the globe about this one, and they come to me, I don’t go to them. Learning that close to home I’m a cranky ranter who is only looking for attention was a wake up call to update my PSILY time line. Done, and will be launching the blog in a few day.

[GregT]

Here I thought that to be a “Rhone” variety the grape had to be Spanish.

Kind of like Garnacha, Cariñena, Monastrell. . .

all “real” Rhone varieties, courtesy of Spain.

Syrah gets a pass, I guess since some people believed it was Persian.

I don’t know why anyone would care if PS were considered “Rhone” or not - we don’t consider Zin Italian or Croatian, so it’s kind of nice that PS is like Zin - something cast out from its home that has been able to excel in the US.

[TomHill]

@GregT

Syrah gets a pass, I guess since some people believed it was Persian.

I think the evidence has indicated that Syrah was a cross (Deureza X MondeuseBlanche) migrated down from the Savoie and the Persian connection
has pretty much been relegated to the dustbin of history.

I don’t know why anyone would care if PS were considered “Rhone” or not > - we don’t consider Zin Italian or Croatian, so it’s kind of nice that PS is like Zin - something cast out from its home that has been able to excel in the US.

Pretty much my thoughts, too…who the heck cares if it’s considered FrenchRhone or CalifRhone. Who the heck cares what kind of little box it’s put into.
Tom

[jodiaz]

Marketers care, Tom, because it pays the bills, something else we all enjoy doing well. The members of any advocacy group care, regardless of the cause. They pay dues to care, and lots of wineries pay out a lot of money each year to belong to marketing groups. Consumers might not care, as in your case, because marketing isn’t their forte, and that’s okay, too.

[larry_schaffer]

To me, what’s important is that the variety remain ‘relevant’ to consumers . . . and that they understand what it is, how it is ‘different’ than Syrah, and know that a large number of wineries pride themselves in producing Petite Sirahs . . .

There still is a lot of ‘confusion’ in the marketplace about what the variety is and what it’s ‘like’ . . .and groups like PS I LOVE YOU and Rhone Rangers can and do help consumers understand it a bit better.

Cheers

[J_Diven]

@TomHill

@GregT

I don’t know why anyone would care if PS were considered “Rhone” or not > - we don’t consider Zin Italian or Croatian, so it’s kind of nice that PS is like Zin - something cast out from its home that has been able to excel in the US.

Pretty much my thoughts, too…who the heck cares if it’s considered FrenchRhone or CalifRhone. Who the heck cares what kind of little box it’s put into.
Tom

Eeek, this thread again. The point isn’t whether PS should be in a Rhone ‘box’ but whether the Rhone box should be leveraged to sell PS.
I’d agree that the general North American customer is ignorant and probably does not care. If you tell them PS is a ‘Rhone’ variety, they will likely not give a crap, or simply believe you (eventually).

To me it is the Rhone Ranger member who should care, and how much should depend on the degree of self respect and integrity they possess.
If they are marketing using ‘Rhone’ or ‘CalifRhone’ as a tribute to the historic home of the variety, then PS is factually incorrect.
If they are co-opting the Rhone place name to sell other, unrelated varietal wines, well I guess at some level that makes sense too.

[TomHill]

@J Diven

Eeek, this thread again. The point isn’t whether PS should be in a Rhone ‘box’ but whether the Rhone box should be leveraged to sell PS.
I’d agree that the general North American customer is ignorant and probably does not care. If you tell them PS is a ‘Rhone’ variety, they will likely not give a crap, or simply believe you (eventually).

To me it is the Rhone Ranger member who should care, and how much should depend on the degree of self respect and integrity they possess.
If they are marketing using ‘Rhone’ or ‘CalifRhone’ as a tribute to the historic home of the variety, then PS is factually incorrect.
If they are co-opting the Rhone place name to sell other, unrelated varietal wines, well I guess at some level that makes sense too.

I guess you are “technically” correct on this, Jim. It was discovered in Languedoc/Rousillon at Montepellier. Not the RhoneVlly.
I guess the problem is, to my mind, that I tend to lump Languedoc/Rousillon and RhoneVlly all together. It’s all “SouthernFrance”, they
share many of the same grapes, I just don’t make a big distinction betwixt the two. And I’m pretty sure that the vast majority of
consumers out there don’t distinguish between (Southern) RhoneVlly, Languedoc/Rousillon, Pays d’Oc, etc. It’s all “down there”
to them.
Tom

[larry_schaffer]

Jim,

What if an ‘asterisk’ is placed next to Petite Sirah on the Rhone Rangers website? Would that work?!?!?

I understand what you’re saying, but I think Tom has said it best - taking a more ‘practical’ approach to the subject at hand. I’m just happy to be a part of helping to ‘educate’ consumers on the variety any way I can. I dig PS and hope to find more consumers who do as well . . . . period.

Cheers.

[J_Diven]

Oh sure, now you’re going to make me go to the website…

Actually the PS description on the Red Grapes page is very fair and straightforward, talking about parentage and that it’s not grown in France today. And I like the mission statement on the home page ‘… to educate the public on Rhone varietal wine grapes grown in America…’. Perfect.

The part about ‘… traditional Rhone grape varieties as approved by the French government for the wines of the Cotes du Rhone (including Petite Sirah/Durif)’, should perhaps say ‘(as well as PS/Durif)’. But that is getting pretty nitty.

So i’m fine with all that - not that you or anyone should really care - it’s good stuff.
It’s just when we get into that ‘Americas own Rhone variety’, and ‘more rhone like’ stuff (quoted above from some of the members) that I get confused.

[Lewis_Dawson]

Where are all the California wine fans who go ballistic whenever any CA pinot noir is compared to Burgundy, or described as “Burgundian,” or described as “not Burgundian”? I would expect them to take offense at these CA producers who band together to ride the coattails of the fame and heritage of Rhone Valley wines. We often hear things like, “It’s not Burgundy, so why can’t we just appeciate it for what it is,” etc. And yet here, they are silent, and I don’t understand why.

Personally, I have no problem with TNs or discussions that compare or contrast New World and Old World wines. However, I do object when producers (and their agents such as Rhone Rangers) try to trade on (ie, rip off) Old World place names.

[jodiaz]

J Drive, I like you style, and how you think.

[GregT]

Lew - I don’t think that’s exactly what’s happening. We talk about “Bordeaux” grapes and don’t think people are trying to make Bordeaux wines, and I think calling them “Rhone” grapes doesn’t imply making Rhone wines, or “Cal-Ital” means they’re making Italian wines.

It’s just that people in the US have become used to buying by grape variety, and those are simple ways to indicate groups of grapes. And since the CA wine industry in the 1970s was about Bordeaux varieties plus Chardonnay, the people who wanted to differentiate themselves simply glommed onto the Rhone name as a convenient shortcut. I don’t think anyone is trying to steal a place name.

That said, I don’t think PS should really be part of that. It seems to me that PS I Love You is an excellent idea all by itself especially as it uniquely focuses on one grape. Moreover, the Rhone varieties are becoming better known every day as people are exploring beyond Merlot and Chardonnay, so I don’ think there’s any danger. It’s not like they’re calling themselves the “Cote Rotie Rangers!”

PS - Tom, I know about the Syrah parentage - but someone should tell the good folks at Darioush!

[Lewis_Dawson]

@GregT

Lew - I don’t think that’s exactly what’s happening. We talk about “Bordeaux” grapes and don’t think people are trying to make Bordeaux wines, and I think calling them “Rhone” grapes doesn’t imply making Rhone wines, or “Cal-Ital” means they’re making Italian wines.

It’s just that people in the US have become used to buying by grape variety, and those are simple ways to indicate groups of grapes…

Greg, that is a very good answer. While I might not agree quite 100%, I do see your point quite clearly, so thanks.

[larry_schaffer]

@Lewis Dawson

Where are all the California wine fans who go ballistic whenever any CA pinot noir is compared to Burgundy, or described as “Burgundian,” or described as “not Burgundian”? I would expect them to take offense at these CA producers who band together to ride the coattails of the fame and heritage of Rhone Valley wines. We often hear things like, “It’s not Burgundy, so why can’t we just appeciate it for what it is,” etc. And yet here, they are silent, and I don’t understand why.

Personally, I have no problem with TNs or discussions that compare or contrast New World and Old World wines. However, I do object when producers (and their agents such as Rhone Rangers) try to trade on (ie, rip off) Old World place names.

Gotta agree with Greg here. I don’t think anyone, including Rhone Rangers, are riding on any coat tails. It’s just a means of explaining where the grapes are from - no different than saying 'Burgundian varieties or Bordeaux varieties . . .

Cheers.