Wine as a science, an art, as both or neither.

The human sense of smell & taste is still far too precise for “Science” to be of any use at the far right end of the bell curve.

“Science” [which is to say, Engineering] will need to become many orders of magnitude more precise before “It” will have any hope of pre-empting the human experience.

And from the point of view of “Big Data”, computers would need many orders of magnitude more memory & computing power to crunch all of the possible combinations of even a few basic ingredients in a wine.

[Then there’s the question concerning the quaint old-fashioned notion of “morality”, which, at least in the old days, precluded the specter of sawing open peoples’ skulls and depositing electrodes in their various cortexes & amygdalae & insulae & hypothalmuses & whatnot, like everyone in the “Neurosciences” earns a living inflicting upon millions (if not billions) of lab rats & lab mice & lab canines &c.]

For the near future, “Art” utterly trumps “Science” when it comes to high-end tasting.

[Note: “Family Tradition passed down in secret through The Ages” gets classified as “Art”. So does “Just Dumb Fool Luck”.]

I believe wine is an art made better through science.

I also think some might be missing the point a little on Mike’s question. I don’t think he is advocating an intention ignorance of all technical aspects of winemaking (correct me if I’m wrong). It seems that he’s saying that for him getting too much into the weeds of the specifics can distract from the enjoyment of the end product. In the end, that’s really what it’s all about.

So I would respond to that by saying it depends on who you are. I’m sure there are many who derive much of their pleasure in wine geekery by reasearching endlessly and discussing every minute detail of every step of the winemaking process. Might those persons enjoy wine more if they took it down a notch, I would suspect not. I suppose you’d have to ask them that question.

I think of it like baseball and football for me. As a baseball fanatic, I research all kinds of stats, trends, pitching tendencies, ballpark idiosyncrasies, and just about anything else you can think of. I think it adds to my enjoyment of the game because I feel more invested in the process and enjoy that aspect of the game. With football, I enjoy it nearly as much as baseball but I have nearly the opposite approach. I tend to know basic schemes and players names but mostly I just root for my teams and marvel at the spectacular plays and feats of athleticism. I don’t believe that geeking out more about football plays would enhance my enjoyment nor do I believe just watching baseball more passively would lead to me enjoying it more either.

On essence, I believe one can enjoy wine and even obsess about it without knowing a single technical detail about it. But it is also entirely possible for a different person to obsess over every technical detail and enjoy the same wine just as much, provided that it is their passion to learn such things.

There is a difference btwn making wine and enjoying it.

To use a building analogy, I think wine making combines structural engineering with architecture.
Without both the result is either boring or falls down.

I believe it is farming, science, art and gambling.

[winner.gif]

I get that. But when we still had to develop that thing called film, I remember thinking that he was the ultimate technician. A complete master of his craft. With such perfect places, or visions of those places, maybe what he wanted to do was capture and share the majesty and drama that captivated him and he put his formidable technique to that service.

But again, it’s not like there’s some spectrum with science at one end and art at the other. Science is about acquisition of knowledge. Art is the application of one’s skills and technique to realize something. Mozart did not need to know what sound was, how the human ear picked it up, or how the human brain processed it. He skillfully used the tools he had.

Hitchcock realized or learned that movement from left to right was comfortable for viewers, but right to left could be jarring. Same with top to bottom. So he produced maximum shock by having something erupt from the bottom right corner of the screen.

He learned something. Then he used it to realize his vision. I don’t get the conflict.

Back to the OP. Mike was talking about “users”.

‘users’ of wine love discussing the science of it. Brix this, acidify that, yadda yadda

Has nothing to do with science. Or anything else really. Mostly has to do with wine drinker BS.

And in my life I’ve never met anyone named Ansel. How did they come up with that name for their kid?

Having studied Chemistry and taken all levels of WSET wine education, I sometimes find myself discerning wines down to their individual building blocks; what notes are primary, which ones are oaky, malo-related, yeasty, which ones spring from tertiary evolution, wondering/guessing about the acidity level, sweetness, tannin structure yadda yadda and have to remind myself to sit back and just enjoy this beverage, that I absolutely love. Studying the science can take away a bit of romanticism. I appreciate my knowledge but it can sometimes be distracting

I wonder if there’s a correlation between folks who want the technical data and the folks who stand up close.

Scott W, you got my point. John M, you too about Ansel’s work.
The Zone System was an amazing revelation; once we got to look into those shadows AND see the highlights, all became clear. I still certainly consider him quite amazing but still feel he depth of his craft’s science hurt him later on when some work just seemed forced. Another subject for another time as we are talking wine. :slight_smile:



All good stuff. Well, almost all…

For me the question -or the answer- has to do with the duality of the intellect and the soul. The science(intellect) tethers the wine, makes it real, makes it something. The soul, or soulful winemaker(artist), sends the wine -those few great bottles- to the heights that most of us here are searching. We start using terms like billowy, soaring, and describe myriad perceptions and feelings we get. We pine for great bottles and reminisce the great bottles of the past. Both are needed to make great wines. The question is your glass half soul(art) or half science? For me it is art no doubt!

For anyone who considers participating in a forum such as this a worthwhile use of their time, a more than casual interest in wine is a certainty. Tastings and winery visits are a great time to enjoy the geek aspects of wine. The problem, if there is one, is when wine should not be the focus of the event (as good as the wine might be) but some find it necessary to engage in wine geek behavior. An associate of mine insists on opening and serving the wine he’s brought into a restaurant himself. And there are times when I would much prefer to do the same myself, but I resist the temptation because I think it’s important that the server be allowed to do their job to maximize the overall restaurant experience. Wine is a great common denominator to bring people of diverse backgrounds together. But it can do so subtly without having to be the focus of the event.

Michael - trust me - there are tons and tons of wine lovers (and avid buyers) who have never heard of wine chat boards, and have never participated. Likewise, they know nothing about growing and winemaking. They enjoy wine, have the funds to purchase, and make great wine drinking companions. We just don’t see them here.

I’m having a hard time with the notion that not being interested in learning more about wine, growing, winemaking, everything that goes into a bottle of wine, isn’t a good thing. Would anyone claim that learning about art history interferes with the enjoyment of art?

I thought that it was pretty clear from the original post that this was about the people who had the capacity for either or both approaches, not he 99% for whom wine is little more than an enjoyable beverage. I don’t think anyone would say learning about wine is a negative thing; as long as one doesn’t become consumed by that knowledge at the expense of pleasure.

I don’t think anyone is arguing for or against anyone or anything. Just conversing about wine (again!) on what is here a dismal day of rain.

Mike, how about some of both and a whole lot more. When faced with this inquiry, I like to think about (1) the history of wine, and (2) how I’d respond to this question in other situations involving consumables.

First, wine making and the product we actually consume have come a long way from heavy chaptalization, ultra high acidity, and piss poor wine that would undoubtedly become oxidized before most was consumed. So is what we consume today all about science? In large part, yes. Grapes are an agricultural commodity. They are farmed. Over the past two hundred years, and especially during the past 70 years, we’ve made great advancements in genetics, farming practices, climate effect mitigation, managing ripeness, managing sun exposure, managing sugar and acid concentrations, and managing yields to ensure the highest possible quality from vineyard to winery. Much of that is directed by winemakers, but also vineyard managers and farmers, and backed largely by science (and anecdotal evidence).

Once the grapes come from vineyard to winery, the winemaker typically takes over and manipulates the raw materials into a final product based on a series of decisions. Is that part of the artistry? Sure. It’s the crafting of annual recipes, blends, acid management, etc. All of those decisions result in something that often carries the winemaker’s signature. Or at least we like to think it does. Can a winemaker save a bad vintage? At times, yes. Is that artistry or science, or some combination of science-driven artistry? Probably the latter. Science is undoubtedly party of the process. Artistry, of some sort, probably is too. Much like Clayton Kershaw shows artistry during the regular season in baseball, using his preparation, knowledge, and prowess to routinely craft games head and shoulders above his peers. Is that really art, though? And that question leads me to my second response.

Is wine making art? Is craft beer making art? How about the skill it requires to make every budweiser taste exactly the same. A number of cicerones have told me that the best brewers in the world work for Anheiser Busch. They’ve got to take somewhat different materials every year and impart on those materials their brewery’s exact, world famous signature. Do we consider those folks artists? Is their job much harder, perhaps, than Villaine’s? They have inferior materials and are forced to produce a mass-acclaimed beer. Who is really the artist? Can a baseball player, a dancer, a painter be an artist? Presumably, art is about the implementation of interpretation. Presumably, then, a winemaker can be an artist by deciding, wine should taste like this from here, and making that happen. So I’d say that art is part of it, though perhaps the artist would be incapable of implementing his or her interpretation without science first providing the necessary materials and know-how.

In the end, however, I think that wine is a consumable for which we should have some appreciation solely due to the fact that (1) it is hard to make right, (2) we drink elite wines, (3) and it takes years for a wine to come to fruition during which time any number of things could go wrong. As a result, each great bottle is a luxury. Is it to be coveted? I don’t think so. It’s a conduit to great times. Go have your mass tasting, or go spend 4 hours alone in a corner with your prize possession. But enjoy it, or the stories that go with it, or the people that go with it, or the sensations that go with it. Because once it’s gone, it’s gone, and we’re off to the next bottle of science-based artistic interpretation of a simple agricultural commodity.

Watch your double negatives, Alan.

Maybe I meant it that way :wink: But thanks [cheers.gif]

Also, winemaking is what you do when the art part breaks.

Huh?

Are we talking SPAM, or Iberico?