Wild/Feral fermentation questions

Cellar Rats (ITB)
41

Eric,
Do you purposely get your ferments above 75 degrees with pinot?
I have seen folks try to keep the temps. down closer to 70 in an effort to make more aromatic wines - although these folks are adding SO2 at the crusher and using commercial yeasts.
Best, Jim

42

Late 80’s, preferably 90-93, is where most want to get to in Burgundy to fix colour and blow off volatility.

43

Andrew,
Doesn’t that make for a very fast ferment?
I have seen 12 brix burnt off in 12 hours at those temps.
Best, Jim

44

Not Andrew here, Jim, but I did some work at a winery a couple of years ago where ferments were typically around 90 or so, and most of those did not ferment any faster or slower than lower temp ferments I usually work with at other places. I’ve seen large brix drops at less than 80 degrees and very moderate ones at 90+. So I don’t think the temp on its own accounts for the fermentation speed.

45

House yeast?
Best, Jim

46

Exactly. The temperature is a very indirect measure of what’s going on. Yeast produce a predictable amount of heat as a byproduct of fermentation. But the ambient temperature and the must temperature are also seeking an equilibrium. So, if the must is warmer than the air around the vessel it will dissipate heat. If the air is warmer it will warm up the must. Of course you can take measures to warm up or cool the must, and the make up of the vessel effects the heat transfer rate. At must temperatures from cold to hot, yeast activity will go from inactive to slow to normal to slow to dead. I don’t think yeast are any more happy at 90 than 80. Possibly slightly less so, actually. Maybe dependent on the strain. Anyway, an outdoor ferment at 90 where the air is 80 is probably less active than an indoor ferm at 80 when the cellar temp is 60.

47

I’m going to put the wine in 6 gallon glass carboys and then move them down to my wine storage area or ML

Yeah I need to. I havn’t taken a single pic yet [cry.gif]

48

Another question if anyone has a chance:

I tasted the two batches of wine that are still fermenting and I was taken aback by how tart and sharp from acid they tasted. Very austere. Is it normal for pre-ML fermentation wine to taste so austere at this point or should it be more generous at this stage even with the malic acid?

49

Nice! [cheers.gif]

Berry,
Good to hear your plans. Will you have a setup to allow co2 blow off or is it a cap? I’d suggest filling any space with marbles. I can show you a trick on getting the marbles down gently if you like. I’ll call you later today. TAKE pics. No need to post them, but it will help you remember your setup and thoughts on the experience.

And yes, it should be a bit more tart now. The lack of sugar will make it seem less rounded out, showing more of the read structure prior to ML conversion. Don’t worry about it not being generous, things will change several times over, don’t worry too much about how it seems at the moment.

Well done by the way!

50

My ferments are usually some where in the 80s (sometimes they peak in the 70s, I avoid the 90s) . I don’t intentionally cold soak except what comes from the temp of the fruit when it was picked. Since I use a small amt of sulfur at the crusher (a ‘normal/typical’ amt in barrel after ML and at bottling tho), I don’t like to extend the amt of time the fruit sits in the 60’s…since bad bugs are more likely to be active in the 60s than the good yeasts. I won’t heat the must up tho, except as a last resort for must that refuses to get going (I’ll aerate the must first, which usually does the trick…if not I’ll use a space heater under the tank…tho a 600w space heater under 3 tons of fruit is more of a polite request :slight_smile:. I’ll set the glycol jacket to low or mid 80’s (depending on past history with the fruit, and my feelings of the vintage) and will then let the fruit do what it will do (if I really like how things are going, I might bump up the temps from there).

The tank I most often use is taller than it is wide (it’s an italian tank)…a design that doesn’t seem to be very popular (wider than tall, or equal dimensions seem to rule the day). The downside of the tank is I’m more dependent on punch downs (or pump over’s, which I do infrequently) for extracting from the cap…but I’m not focused on super extracted wines, so that’s fine with me. Also, there’s less surface area to blow off alcohol…but I’d rather pick at a lower brix anyways, so not much of an issue for me. But what I like is, because of the smaller (relatively) diameter, the glycol jacket is more in control of the temps in the center of the cap…and I like not having super high temps there (it also seems to help prevent the ‘20 brix to 5 brix drop overnight’ effect that Pinot seems prone to). I don’t mind bumping the temps up to the high 80’s (if I think the fruit will benefit from that of course) in that tank because of that. (also, I’m not dissing wider/shorter tanks here…there’s just different tradeoffs).

I think aromatics comes from what’s extracted from the fruit + what the yeasts do + time in the barrel and bottle (and how much new oak is used, but I’m talking about fruit derived aromatics, not oak). I’ve heard some folks say that aromatics get blown off with higher temp ferments and I’m not sure I believe that. I think higher temp ferments are more likely to extract structure (esp skin tannins) and that’ll make the wine take longer to show its aromatics (et al), but I don’t think higher temp ferments are at a disadvantage aromatically…if anything, they are at a potential advantage (if the wine is balanced) tho it will take longer to show everything. I think higher temps are more likely to have savory components…but I’m not sure you give up floral aromatics (e.g. my 09 Moore Ranch peaked at 86 degrees and has some great violets on the nose).

51

I think you are about right. Higher temps do seem to bring out much darker color, but I have found that the rise in structure HIDES some of the aromas early, thus making oak more noticeable at a younger age as well. After a few years, as the oak fades and the tannins mellow, the aromas re-emerge. I also agree about the “savory” aspect and loss of floral aromas, which is why I like high temps for Cab, but if I tried to make a True Sonoma Coast Syrah, I might not want to risk the loss of floral aromas, and would thus lower my ferment temps. Then again, maybe 94F ferments and more new oak might produce something interesting. Maybe not. Ha!

As for native ferments, Joe Davis of Arcadian did a good job convincing me in person, that what is likely happening is more of an “ambient” ferment, and that Chardonnay yeast or other white yeast from some other tank or even the winery next door may be fermenting reds that think they are doing a native ferment. Aren’t there studies that show there is not enough native yeast in California to finish a ferment? I know of someone who used Montrachet yeast(?) for his Chards, and went “native” for his reds. When he was told of the theory, he tried one red intentionally fermented with Montrachet, one with D-254 and one “native.” When he tasted the result, the so-called native and the Montrachet were identical.

I find this topic fascinating, but I must be one of the few people who does not like the results of so-called native ferments. They have stuck on me. Perhaps they have a harder time completing my rather high-brix ferments, as I personally consider picking any of my Cabs under 25 brix to be mildly disappointing. At any rate, I like to control my ferments and I like what D-254 gives me, so I go that route most of the time.

PS- Gusmer showed me today a line of yeasts they introduced that are 100% non-Saccharomyces yeast, that they say was designed to ferment high alcohol reds to completion. Another was 100% Pichia Kluyveri, meant for whites. And a third was 100% Torulaspora for Pinot, which apparently adds tropical aromas. I am not about to try these, but they are now out there.

52

Roy,
They do sound interesting for things like pinot, chard., riesling and sauvignon though. I have done some reading on them and I also notice the recommendations call for sacc. after about 7 brix are burned off.
Obviously, not for cab.
Best, Jim

53

This was my first year fermenting anything in my garage with all new and disinfected equipment. The ferments started without any issue at all.

After the native ferments got going I brought in some additional must and have started some cultured ferments with those. The aromatics from the cultured ferments smell totally different than the wild ones.

54

“Ambient” is a better term. I doubt any true native CA yeasts could complete a fermentation. Saccharomyces are everywhere now (humans are a major vector, btw) so preventing their introduction would take extreme measures.

55

Why do you doubt it?

56

Saccharomyces is alcohol tolerant. The native species are not.

57

I guess I’m not convinced that Saccharomyces isn’t found in nature. I know there is a study that says they couldn’t find it on grapes but there was another study where they did (in new zealand).

58

Berry,

Which New Zealand study are you talking about Berry? I have read a few, one larger one recently about NZ, didn’t know if it was that one.

Adam Lee
Siduri Wines

59

Sacc is found in nature, just in tiny numbers compared to the “native” yeasts.

60

I’ll look for it. I read it recently.