Why is German riesling so much lower alcohol than all other riesling?

[Cliff_Rosenberg]

@Lars Carlberg

Gerhard P.: You’re right. There are a few exceptions, however. For example, Hanno Zilliken of Geltz-Zilliken does use in certain instances – and with great skill – a little sweet reserve for an Auslese.

That’s one of the main issues: wines made with sweet reserve have higher amounts of glucose and taste noticeably sweetened.

Didn’t (doesn’t?) Leitz do this?

[Charlie_Carnes]

@Lars Carlberg

Thanks for the rundown, Claude. I can understand the points and Stefan Christmann’s opinions (he and I discussed them too), but there are many issues that need to be ironed out still.

1. There is no historical basis – as some in the VDP like to argue – for keeping the Prädikat designations, especially the term Kabinett, for only sweet German Rieslings. Nonetheless, it makes it easier for consumers who know less about German wines. I’m just wondering how a producer will then be able to designate a lighter style of dry or off-dry Riesling. Moreover, how can they indicate that their wine is unchaptalized and from a specific place? In addition, Spätlese and Auslese had different meanings in the late 19th century, when German Riesling was at its height.

2. See point one. It should be possible for the producer to designate more than one dry or off-dry wine per site. This actually goes against the notion of terroir.

3. I cannot understand why a fruity Riesling Kabinett/QbA shouldn’t bear the name of a vineyard. In fact, a fruity Riesling Kabinett/QbA can often show its place better than a higher Prädikat.

4. I’m sure the rules will be slightly different for the Mosel.

It’s already a problem that producers who have large holdings in Erste Lage (or, better in Grosse Lage) vineyards (Achim-Magin, for example) are forced to make either GGs or create fantasy names, because only one dry wine can bear the site name. The non-VDP producers will still use the terms, such as “Kabinett trocken,” although many are switching to the VDP model.

This really affects some of the producers I buy. For instance what would 2009 Stein Riesling St. Aldegunder Himmelreich Kabinett trocken be called under the new rules (assume they are members ). Or would Stein not join or leave the VDP. I am not a fan of the VDP or any such organizations.

[John_Morris]

@Chris Seiber

And the best [wine growing regions] that are on large and wide landmasses are found on or near the west side of it (California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, France, Spain, Italy, Germany).

Interesting thought but, I’m not sure it really holds up on examination. What about Argentina? Or the Hunter Valley (east coast) or Barossa (middle south)?

In North America, the best growing areas are on the West Coast generally because it has a far more mild climate than the rest of the Continent.

Elsewhere there are plausible social explanations. In Europe, the grape plantings largely reflect where the Romans got (the Rhine and the Danube marked the end of the empire), and not just the fact that it’s more mild along the Atlantic coast than inland to the east. I guess if you look at all of Eurasia, the German wine regions look like they’re on the west, but it’s quite a distance from the Rhine wine areas – not to mention the Wachau or Hungary – to the Atlantic.

Moreover, further east, the Crimea made sweet wines that were very highly valued a century ago, and the Turks, Armenians and Georgians all take wine serious, not to mention the Lebanese. Islam and Communism didn’t help the cause of fine wine, though.

[John_Morris]

Lars and Claude –

Thanks for the info, though it’s depressing to see the relentless pointless fiddling with the German label rules – a ritual of commercial masochism.

[Lars_Carlberg]

Cliff: I don’t know about Leitz. My last visit was in the nineties. Otherwise, I’ve only tasted some bottles here and there in recent years.

Charlie: You needn’t worry about Ulli Stein. He’s neither a VDP member nor would he want to join. Ulli wants affordable pricing and unpretentious packaging. Moreover, he disagrees with Stefan Christmann’s stance. They, however, have talked about Grosses Gewächs and other VDP measures in the past. A.J. Adam and Immich-Batterieberg are non-VDP members, but they both avoid Prädikat designations for their dry and off-dry wines. Peter Lauer will be a VDP member by this time next year.

[Lars_Carlberg]

@John Morris

Lars and Claude –

Thanks for the info, though it’s depressing to see the relentless pointless fiddling with the German label rules – a ritual of commercial masochism.

Hey John, you’re welcome. The VDP is a private organization, but many of their new (internal) rules are based on the recent EU wine-labeling laws. Despite all the complications over the years, changes are needed in Germany, and the VDP is at least making an effort. Although I can understand your sentiment. In fact, many VDP members feel the same way.

[Charlie_Carnes]

@Lars Carlberg

Cliff: I don’t know about Leitz. My last visit was in the nineties. Otherwise, I’ve only tasted some bottles here and there in recent years.

Charlie: You needn’t worry about Ulli Stein. He’s neither a VDP member nor would he want to join. Ulli’s not one for elitism. He wants affordable pricing and unpretentious packaging. Moreover, he disagrees with Stefan Christmann’s stance. They, however, have talked about Grosses Gewächs in other VDP measures in the past. A.J. Adam and Immich-Batterieberg are non-VDP members, but they both avoid Prädikat designations for their dry and off-dry wines. Peter Lauer will be a VDP member by this time next year.

Great news about Ulli
Too bad about Lauer. I ask this as a student: what will he be able to call Senior, for instance?

[Lars_Carlberg]

@Claude Kolm

@Lars Carlberg

Thanks for the rundown, Claude. I can understand the points and Stefan Christmann’s opinions (he and I discussed them too), but there are many issues that need to be ironed out still.

1. There is no historical basis – as some in the VDP like to argue – for keeping the Prädikat designations, especially the term Kabinett, for only sweet German Rieslings. Nonetheless, it makes it easier for consumers who know less about German wines. I’m just wondering how a producer will then be able to designate a lighter style of dry or off-dry Riesling. Moreover, how can they indicate that their wine is unchaptalized and from a specific place? In addition, Spätlese and Auslese had different meanings in the late 19th century, when German Riesling was at its height.

2. See point one. It should be possible for the producer to designate more than one dry or off-dry wine per site. This actually goes against the notion of terroir.

3. I cannot understand why a fruity Riesling Kabinett/QbA shouldn’t bear the name of a vineyard. In fact, a fruity Riesling Kabinett/QbA can often show its place better than a higher Prädikat.

4. I’m sure the rules will be slightly different for the Mosel.

It’s already a problem that producers who have large holdings in Erste Lage (or, better in Grosse Lage) vineyards (Achim-Magin, for example) are forced to make either GGs or create fantasy names, because only one dry wine can bear the site name. The non-VDP producers will still use the terms, such as “Kabinett trocken,” although many are switching to the VDP model.

I agree with all your points completely, Lars. And so do most of the producers with whom I’ve spoken about the matter; a few seem relatively indifferent (i.e., it doesn’t affect them much and/or they’re already more or less conforming to the new rules). Only Stefan Christmann and Armin Diel, of those with whom the new rules came up, seemed really gung-ho about the changes, but I guess those two and a few more are the ones who wield the real power.

That’s the vibe that I’m getting from the VDP producers, too, Claude. Some are backing the measures more than others. Each has their own point of view or lack thereof. I do like Stefan Christmann and his wines. He’s a gentleman and smart, too. I just hope he sees some of these issues. Armin Diel, on the other hand, has been one of the early power brokers in pushing through the concept of GG and all. I sometimes get the feeling that the VDP doesn’t think this fully through with all parties (including non-VDP members) in mind. Initially, their classification model was more like Bordeaux’s, now they’re fixated on Burgundy. For instance, Erste Lage becomes Grosse Lage, but Grosslage also exists in books and maps.

[Lars_Carlberg]

@Charlie Carnes

@Lars Carlberg

Cliff: I don’t know about Leitz. My last visit was in the nineties. Otherwise, I’ve only tasted some bottles here and there in recent years.

Charlie: You needn’t worry about Ulli Stein. He’s neither a VDP member nor would he want to join. Ulli’s not one for elitism. He wants affordable pricing and unpretentious packaging. Moreover, he disagrees with Stefan Christmann’s stance. They, however, have talked about Grosses Gewächs in other VDP measures in the past. A.J. Adam and Immich-Batterieberg are non-VDP members, but they both avoid Prädikat designations for their dry and off-dry wines. Peter Lauer will be a VDP member by this time next year.

Great news about Ulli
Too bad about Lauer. I ask this as a student: what will he be able to call Senior, for instance?

Charlie, you needn’t worry about Peter Lauer. Florian will change little. His Schonfels, Kupp 56, and a small portion of Saarfeilser will be GGs, as all three sites are “Grosse Lage.” Senior will stay the same, as far as I know. It has no Prädikat.

[Chris_Seiber]

@John Morris

@Chris Seiber

And the best [wine growing regions] that are on large and wide landmasses are found on or near the west side of it (California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, France, Spain, Italy, Germany).

Interesting thought but, I’m not sure it really holds up on examination. What about Argentina? Or the Hunter Valley (east coast) or Barossa (middle south)?

In North America, the best growing areas are on the West Coast generally because it has a far more mild climate than the rest of the Continent.

You’ve come up with three fairly minor exceptions that aren’t even actually exceptions. Mendoza, Argentina, is less than 100 miles east of the west coast of South America, and South America, particularly that part of it, is not at all a “large and wide landmass.” Hunter Valley is in the southeastern corner of Australia but not too far across from Adelaide.

There is a reason why the west coast has milder climate on every large continent, which is my point. Because of the direction the Earth rotates, the wind generally tends to blow from the west, and wind off an ocean produces milder climates than wind off the land. Which is why Kazakhstan and Iowa have extreme heat and cold, whereas western France and California have mild weather.

[John_Morris]

So why aren’t the best wines of Australia grown around Perth?

As for the the Hunter Valley, to say it’s on the west of its land mass takes some serious sophistry! The best generalization about the top Australian areas is that they’re all not far from a coast and in the southeast of the continent.

Mendoza may be close to the Pacific on a map, but there is the small matter of the Andes being in the way, so I’m not sure geographically how meaningful it is to treat it as on the western side of the continent.

As for your other analogies, Napa has a relatively extreme climate with frosts in winter and summer highs that are often over 95, so it’s a far cry from Bordeaux or, certainly, the Loire. Also, the differences between the western Russian River Valley or Mendocino County, on the one hand, and the northern part of Napa are so great that it’s hard to lump them altogether as “western.” The big issue on the East Coast of the U.S. isn’t so much the temperatures – Napa and Sonoma are about as warm in the summer – as the humidity, which historically made it very hard to produce clean fruit.

And you didn’t answer my points about Hungary or Austria or the Crimea.

Finally, much of the eastern sides of Africa and Eurasia are in the tropical latitudes, so they aren’t really in the running. Who knows what would have happened if the Europeans had colonized the more temperate parts of Asia more aggressively.

[Rob_Hansult]

@mmarcellus

Dressner has just signed Koehler-Ruprecht, which should greatly increase their availability (which until now has been limited to a couple of regions in the West). Their 2010 trocken rieslings are amazing, keep an eye out for them in the coming months.

M @ r k

This sounds like Great news!

Love the Koehler-Ruprecht wines!

The Dressner “Natural” BullShit aside . . . really looking forward to actually seeing these amazing wines again.


Thanks! This made my day.

[Lars_Carlberg]

Rob, I’m sure Chambers Street Wines will be offering a number of selections from Koehler-Ruprecht. If you’re lucky, they’ll have the 2010 Kallstadter Saumagen Riesling Spätlese trocken. I only amended and published Bill Hooper’s article, but the photo was taken in my flat.

[Dan_Kravitz]

to Chris Seiber, you wrote: “And the best [wine growing regions] that are on large and wide landmasses are found on or near the west side of it (California, Oregon, Washington, British Columbia, France, Spain, Italy, Germany).”

Too many exceptions to prove your theory. Washington’s best vineyards are considerably inland. They are on the west of North America, but dead center in Washington. Piemonte is west of Italy, but far from the west of Europe and Chianti and Montalcino are central or even east of center in Italy. Rioja is barely west of center in Spain and Priorat is well east of center.
IMO it has been well over a decade since Maximin Grunhaus was the best winery in the world, but they are still amazingly good and their entry-level Trockens can be had for ~$20 - 30 a bottle. Good provenance and storage, they will improve for at least a decade. Remind me to open another '91 QbA (not trocken) soon.

Dan Kravitz

[Lars_Carlberg]

Dan: Agreed. I’m a big fan of Maximin Grünhaus, especially their entry-level trocken bottlings. Although I wouldn’t designate any producer as “best winery in the world,” the quality has been excellent in recent years after a difficult period from 1999 to 2003. Stefan Kraml, who took over in 2004, is one of the top winemakers in the region.

[Russell_Faulkner]

Whilst I love Grunhaus, I certainly don’t see their ‘sweet spot’ being dry wines…

[Lars_Carlberg]

Russell: You’re not alone. Most tasters probably feel the same as you do. The dry Grünhaus Rieslings can be a little too sharp for some. I’m just endorsing Dan’s previous comment.

[Rob_Hansult]

@Lars Carlberg

Rob, I’m sure Chambers Street Wines will be offering a number of selections from Koehler-Ruprecht. If you’re lucky, they’ll have the 2010 Kallstadter Saumagen Riesling Spätlese trocken. I only amended and published Bill Hooper’s article, but the photo was taken in my flat.

Big Cheers! to that, Lars!

I’ll have to have me a little look-see after harvest! Would Love to find some 2010 - my new favorite vintage.

Last tasted an amazing 2004 Saumagen Trocken Spat a couple years ago.

Cheers!

[Lars_Carlberg]

You’re welcome, Rob. I really liked the 2010s from Koehler-Ruprecht and hope you can get some in the States.

[mmarcellus]

@Rob Hansult

@Lars Carlberg

Rob, I’m sure Chambers Street Wines will be offering a number of selections from Koehler-Ruprecht. If you’re lucky, they’ll have the 2010 Kallstadter Saumagen Riesling Spätlese trocken. I only amended and published Bill Hooper’s article, but the photo was taken in my flat.

Big Cheers! to that, Lars!

I’ll have to have me a little look-see after harvest! Would Love to find some 2010 - my new favorite vintage.

Last tasted an amazing 2004 Saumagen Trocken Spat a couple years ago.

Cheers!

Chambers is having a German tasting Saturday which will include two 2010 Koehler-Ruprecht rieslings.

Austrian/German Tastings plus New Arrivals!

M @ r k