Yes, but that really isn’t the answer to my question. Or if it is, it still seems rather awkward to make such a distinction wrt acid in wine.
To be clear, I’m talking about evolving in a positive fashion: being truly ageworthy. A bit of antioxidant property or helping SO2 in the same role seems mostly irrelevant to this.
There are wines with relatively low pH and relatively low total acidity. There are also wines with high pH and high total acidity. This is uncommon, but it happens. There are a lot of factors at play here, especially grape variety, weather, cropping, and harvest timing. I think both total acidity and pH are relevant to this discussion, and the level of each is not necessarily dependant on the other. The best example I can think of is Madeira vs. Sherry. Sherry generally (not always) has fairly low pH and low to moderate total acidity. Madeira’s levels of both are all over the place, but it’s likely to have much higher total acidity than Sherry, though the pH might not be drastically lower, and actually might be equal to or higher than that in a Sherry that’s being compared.
there was some discussion about this in the most recent Guildsomm podcast on wine chemistry. the basic thing mentioned in the podcast was that the acidity isnt really contributing to the ageability as far as developing complexity goes, but its a preservative. It keeps the wine from spoiling while it sits in the cellar and the other components react and develop. acidic environments also provide the right chemical solution characteristics that some of those reactions need to develop desirable attributes.
in a basic (haha pardon the chemistry pun) sense: “high acid” would mostly refer to the amount of titratable acid (TA) in a wine, while low pH has more to do with the amount of H+ in solution. a strong acid (like hydrochloric) might be in fairly low concentration (as far as wine is concerned) but totally dissociate into its respective ions, causing a high level of H+ in solution (and a correspondingly low pH), but not have a very perceivable acid level because there is not much neutralization going on in your mouth (how we feel acidity).
Some acids dissociate much less readily (there are far fewer H+ ions in solution, so a higher pH), even at high concentrations. for these acids, your saliva reacts with the available H+ to neutralize it, and more acid dissociates to replace it, so more saliva is needed. we experience this as a higher acid substance, even though the measured pH is lower.
I guess this is a good point that I was kind of missing when I said antioxidant property isn’t really related. I suppose it can help in this way. It still seems misguided to me that I see so many references to how important acidity is to a wine’s ability to age, but maybe it’s a bit of a misrepresentation of this reality. It isn’t necessary, but it can help other components to develop while the fruit stays fresh. As I think about my examples of wines with only moderate acidity (or less) that age well, mature examples of those wines really aren’t about the fruit. Still, red Rioja has an ability to maintain a surprising amount of freshness, compared to young examples, as it gets quite old. That doesn’t negate the point you two (and probably some other posters here) are making, though.
I guess what I was missing was that in this context “high acid” means that it tastes (is perceived to be) acidic.
I think they pretty much are. “High acid” would be more of a descriptive term someone would use to describe a wine from a tasting perspective, low pH obviously a technical term. But they go hand in hand, with some allowances for the exact makeup of the acidic compounds in the wine.
For example, Malic Acid has a pKa of 3.4, while Lactic Acid has pKa of 3.86 (I won’t get into the distinction between first and second pKa, you can safely ignore the second one for this discussion). Those values tell you how “acidic” the compound is, i.e., its tendency to lose the acidic proton (thus contributing to the pH of the solution, which is a measure of the concentration of proton ions); the lower the number, the more “acidic” it is. (by comparison, hydrochloric acid has a pKa of -6.3, obviously much lower, and consistent with HCl being a very strong acid).
So when wines go through malolactic fermentation (the conversion of malic to lactic acid, as the name suggests), the wine will seem a little less “acidic”, even though the total acidity remains essentially the same.
Thanks, Alan
Ah! I was assuming you meant the ability to hang on.
What are your examples? You cited white Hermitage and Rioja, but as I said, those usually have quite a bit of acid – or at least the ones noted for aging best. And, as I said above, I don’t think red Bordeaux is a low-acid wine.
If you want low-acid wines that aren’t supermarket wines, think of most California chardonnays, much Chateauneuf and dolcetto.
I still think Dolcetto is low in acidity on compared to the other Piedmontese reds and otherwise relatively high in acidity. Honestly, I’ve tried quite a lot of Dolcettos AND gone through the fact sheets of many a Dolcetto and although their acid levels might vary drastically, I’ve really never seen any low-acid Dolcettos. It is always possible that the low-acid majority is just actively avoiding me, but that starts to seem pretty odd at this point.
Also, the OP seemed pretty odd and confused. For example the examples cited were wines that often tend to age quite well.
I was drinking a '16 Brezza dolcetto tonight that indeed seems pretty tart, but read any book on Italian wine grapes and you’ll find that the grape is relatively low in acid. It’s always contrasted with barbera. Dolcetto has tannin but low acids, while barbera has high acid but very little tannin.
Yes, it’s always contrasted with Barbera. That’s what I mean: Docletto might be low-acid compared to Barbera, but is it low-acid compared to red varieties in general? Many sources say Dolcetto would be low in acidity, but I’ve yet to taste one as such.
Why does white Burgundy age well? (Premox excluded)
Little tannins. High acid / low pH?
I’m not saying they have low acidity as we would call it, which basically doesn’t exist in commercial wines. Hermitage Blanc is not above medium, though, and most Rioja is in that range as well, with some examples hitting medium+ at the high end, but many old wines at no more than medium. You said Chave Blanc has quite a bit of acidity. I’ve had several vintages, and they’ve all been in the med(-)/med range, never above.
I agree with Otto here. Tasting wines and looking at actual acidity numbers is more telling than reading books. Dolcetto is only low in acidity relative to Barbera and Nebbiolo, and in the former case it often isn’t actually much lower at all.
Not sure what was odd and confused about my first post, though. I was intentionally citing wines that don’t have much acidity that age well.
Acid and probably the phenols from wood aging.
As has been mentioned several times already, there needs to be some reasonable degree of balance. If acidity was the key then 2010 (and maybe 1996) would be the epitome of German Riesling for all time. Vintages such as 1997 and 2007 which are moderate in acid would not be developing as well as they are. Certainly the wines need some kind of structure, from acid or tannin, to develop, but extremes (low or high) are almost never a good thing.
You think dolcetto isn’t much lower in acid than barbera?? (Do you think Lopez de Heredia Rioja is low in acid?)
Ian d’Agata, Native Wine Grapes of Italy:
p. 269: While the wine made from Dolcetto is resolutely dry, never sweet, the grapes are quite sweet and low in acidity…
p. 271: Its low acidity and high tannins … require winemakers to use softer extraction methods and shorter fermentation times: cooler tempertures are also indicated to avoid extracting drying tannins and to preserve the variety’s fresh, vibrant aromas.
Joseph Bastianich & David Lynch, Vino Italiano: The Regional Wines of Italy:
p. 139: [Dolcetto] distinguishes itself from both barbera and nebbiolo with its deep purple-violet color, its low acidity (making it a good blending partner for both of the others), and its full yet sweet tannins.
Why ‘maybe is cheating’ when you say screw cap? Not cheating at all - and as you said, it did develop secondary flavors because screw caps do allow the wine to get some O2.
Cheers