Why can't we have threads like this?

[k_s_h_i_n]

@Loren Sonkin

He is pretty consistent in what he likes, so maybe, although I seem to recall you saying pretty much no one can do this and I am inclined to think that without seeing a label people are less inclined to score a wine above 96 points.

Loren,
I do respect the OP for having enough courage to post such a thread. At least for me, Bob’s 100 point Bordeaux’s tend to taste better than his 94 point Bordeaux’s.

[Howard_Cooper]

Mark,

Unfortunately, the answer to your question is that we do have threads like this. WA #198 - WINE TALK - WineBerserkers You can see from my post there that I don’t like these types of threads (and I hope that the thread got better on the last two pages). I don’t have a problem with a thread that looks at points and says I think that based on what I have tasted and I [agree] [disagree] with [Parker] [whoever]. But these threads seem to almost seem to divorce the points from the wine. The points seem to be the end, not the means to an end (finding good wine to buy).

[Ed_Murray]

What I don’t understand is… if you’re one of those people who find points evil, why bother reading/posting in threads about points?

[Howard_Cooper]

@Kevin Shin

@Loren Sonkin

He is pretty consistent in what he likes, so maybe, although I seem to recall you saying pretty much no one can do this and I am inclined to think that without seeing a label people are less inclined to score a wine above 96 points.

Loren,
I do respect the OP for having enough courage to post such a thread. At least for me, Bob’s 100 point Bordeaux’s tend to taste better than his 94 point Bordeaux’s.

Kevin,

Maybe that is what the OP means, that he has a palate that tends to correlate to Parker’s palate and he feels bad losing the guidance and no longer having someone whose palate tracks his reviewing the wine. I rather think finding a wine writer who you agree with and buying wines he rates highly makes sense. I know that one should look past points and go through the description in the notes, but are the descriptions generally good enough to do that by themselves? The fact that I might follow Allen Meadows or John Gilman more than Robert Parker does not change the fact that where you find a critic for whom your last sentence tends to be correct, follow him.

But that is not how I read what Mark posted (I did not see the rest of the thread) and certainly not how I read the thread I linked to in my last post. They seem to be divorcing the points from how the wine tastes. I do think that in many cases this is financial - lower points means less profit on flipping. But, I think some of it is ego - I am special because I am on the mailing list for xyz winery that gets really high points. Look, I guess we all have some of these tendencies. After last week’s Gilman scores, I can (and do in my signature line) brag that I am on Ray Walker’s mailing list (but he reopened it so I am not so special). But, if I like Ray’s wines (and I do), I don’t see myself saying that I won’t buy it anymore if Gilman hands over rating Burgundy wineries owned by Americans to Jeff Leve and Jeff starts rating Ray’s wines a 60 (which actually would be a high score by Jeff for a Burgundy).

[Howard_Cooper]

@Ed Murray

What I don’t understand is… if you’re one of those people who find points evil, why bother reading/posting in threads about points?

Speaking for myself, I find points useful. I find their use by some people to be “evil”, if that is what you want to call it. I cannot always tell which way a thread is going until i read it.

[Ed_Murray]

@Howard Cooper

@Ed Murray

What I don’t understand is… if you’re one of those people who find points evil, why bother reading/posting in threads about points?

Speaking for myself, I find points useful. I find their use by some people to be “evil”, if that is what you want to call it. I cannot always tell which way a thread is going until i read it.

I also find them useful as another data point. Two basically equivalent wines, I can only have one, I have to buy before I try, same critic (whom I like), similar descriptions, 92 vs 94… I’ll take the 94 on the probability it will be a better wine. Happens ALL the time with me and Burgundy.

[Howard_Cooper]

@Ed Murray

@Howard Cooper

@Ed Murray

What I don’t understand is… if you’re one of those people who find points evil, why bother reading/posting in threads about points?

Speaking for myself, I find points useful. I find their use by some people to be “evil”, if that is what you want to call it. I cannot always tell which way a thread is going until i read it.

I also find them useful as another data point. Two basically equivalent wines, I can only have one, I have to buy before I try, same critic (whom I like), similar descriptions, 92 vs 94… I’ll take the 94 on the probability it will be a better wine. Happens ALL the time with me and Burgundy.

I agree. Probably the decision is more complicated than that, but if I see an offering of Burgundies I have not tasted from a producer I love and see two premier crus priced the same and where based on experience I don’t have a big preference for one over the other (say a Jadot Beaune Bressandes and a Jadot Beaune Theurons), and one is rated by critics I follow 2 points higher than the other, I am likely to buy the one that is higher rated.

In other cases, I tend to buy wines I tend to prefer. For example, I have tended to like Truchot Clos de la Roche more than his Charmes Chambertin for whatever reason. I know that a lot of people disagree with me for reasons of their own personal preferences. Thus, I tend to buy the Clos de la Roche over the Charmes even where people rated the Charmes higher.

[Ed_Murray]

@Howard Cooper

@Ed Murray

@Howard Cooper

Speaking for myself, I find points useful. I find their use by some people to be “evil”, if that is what you want to call it. I cannot always tell which way a thread is going until i read it.

I also find them useful as another data point. Two basically equivalent wines, I can only have one, I have to buy before I try, same critic (whom I like), similar descriptions, 92 vs 94… I’ll take the 94 on the probability it will be a better wine. Happens ALL the time with me and Burgundy.

I agree. Probably the decision is more complicated than that, but if I see an offering of Burgundies I have not tasted from a producer I love and see two premier crus priced the same and where based on experience I don’t have a big preference for one over the other (say a Jadot Beaune Bressandes and a Jadot Beaune Theurons), and one is rated by critics I follow 2 points higher than the other, I am likely to buy the one that is higher rated.

In other cases, I tend to buy wines I tend to prefer. For example, I have tended to like Truchot Clos de la Roche more than his Charmes Chambertin for whatever reason. I know that a lot of people disagree with me for reasons of their own personal preferences. Thus, I tend to buy the Clos de la Roche over the Charmes even where people rated the Charmes higher.

I agree 100% - I give your post a 99. (No post has ever received 100pts from me.)

[Neal.Mollen]

Ed, you’d have given that post 100 points if you had been blind to the author.

[Ed_Murray]

@Neal.Mollen

Ed, you’d have given that post 100 points if you had been blind to the author.

[GregT]

he continued to argue, and then, to my delight, there were a few, who agreed with him

Mark - your fascination was the same as mine. I don’t know the guy but I know Loren and I’ll take his word that the guy wasn’t as clueless as he seemed. But he’s stunningly naive if nothing else.

This may be my quote of the year:

One last time, I buy wine to drink, I do not buy wine to sell. In the past, I could pick a 96 point wine over a 93 point wine, and appreciate, and taste, the difference. Now, just using Scarecrow as an example, I have to go out and buy the wine > to see if I like it> .

The WA numbers are now worth-less. As a consumer, my buying guide is providing questions, not answers.

[Rick_Gregory]

@Loren Sonkin

I think the point behind that thread was that if one can’t taste a wine, like Scarecrow, before one buys it, we need critics to help us know if it is worth the money. If one doesn’t like Scarecrow then sub any $200+ wine in an area that you do like. The question is still, how do you know, if tasting prior is not an option, whether to purchase?

Read the damn tasting note. Engage your brain. Don’t just obsess over a number. And you CAN buy these wines on the secondary market. Anyone who invests in multiple bottles of wine at that price level and who isn’t so rich that there’s no difference between $200 and $20 is an idiot if they base that purchase solely or mostly on some number.

PS: Read GregT’s quote of the guy. Yes, he’s an idiot if the score affects the way a wine tastes to him. He’s one of those RP dittoheads who need to have their opinions about a wine validated by a score rather than whether HE likes it.

@Ed Murray

What I don’t understand is… if you’re one of those people who find points evil, why bother reading/posting in threads about points?

Because points are on of the topics about wine appreciation and when someone posts on a discussion forum people tend to discuss things. What do you want, every thread to be blind agreement with the OP?

[Bob_Hunnicutt]

Sorry, I can only give this thread an 89. The one over on The Other Board is a solid 94. In fact, it may be reaching pre-cult status.

[Rick_Gregory]

@Bob Hunnicutt

Sorry, I can only give this thread an 89. The one over on The Other Board is a solid 94. In fact, it may be reaching pre-cult status.

Not even a 90!!! We’re only Very Good… sigh…

[Cris_Whetstone]

@GregT

This may be my quote of the year:

One last time, I buy wine to drink, I do not buy wine to sell. In the past, I could pick a 96 point wine over a 93 point wine, and appreciate, and taste, the difference. Now, just using Scarecrow as an example, I have to go out and buy the wine > to see if I like it> .

The WA numbers are now worth-less. As a consumer, my buying guide is providing questions, not answers.

I think this sums up a lot of the discussion in the WA #198 thread.

[Randy_Sloan]

@Bob Hunnicutt

Sorry, I can only give this thread an 89. The one over on The Other Board is a solid 94. In fact, it may be reaching pre-cult status.

You’re so hung up on points. LOL

[Freek_S_u_i_j_v_e_r]

I think this thread is probably quite close to what the topic starter was lookign for:

What are the world's highest rated most limited wines?

[Richard_T_r_i_m_p_i]

@Rick Gregory

…Yes, he’s an idiot if the score affects the way a wine tastes to him. He’s one of those RP dittoheads who need to have their opinions about a wine validated by a score rather than whether HE likes it.

If you equate score to price, there’s appreciable evidence showing how that information can strongly influence the taste/preferences of wine tasters. Welcome to “neuromarketing”.

I suspect the majority of wine shoppers are dittoheads (shelf talkers anyone?). An appreciable number of geeks have at some point valued the tastes of various critics more than their own. In the case of “investors”, their own tastes are irrelevant, only the points matter.

RT

[Scott_Brunson]

sigh

1. buying wines purely on the basis of points shows no imagination–yes
2. totally discounting critics who score wines shows no imagination–yes

Most posters seem to agree; then why argue over points again and again…(and again)?
I guess some people either really enjoy

[jbray23]

@Howard Cooper

@Kevin Shin

@Loren Sonkin

He is pretty consistent in what he likes, so maybe, although I seem to recall you saying pretty much no one can do this and I am inclined to think that without seeing a label people are less inclined to score a wine above 96 points.

Loren,
I do respect the OP for having enough courage to post such a thread. At least for me, Bob’s 100 point Bordeaux’s tend to taste better than his 94 point Bordeaux’s.

Kevin,

Maybe that is what the OP means, that he has a palate that tends to correlate to Parker’s palate and he feels bad losing the guidance and no longer having someone whose palate tracks his reviewing the wine. I rather think finding a wine writer who you agree with and buying wines he rates highly makes sense. I know that one should look past points and go through the description in the notes, but are the descriptions generally good enough to do that by themselves? The fact that I might follow Allen Meadows or John Gilman more than Robert Parker does not change the fact that where you find a critic for whom your last sentence tends to be correct, follow him.

But that is not how I read what Mark posted (I did not see the rest of the thread) and certainly not how I read the thread I linked to in my last post. They seem to be divorcing the points from how the wine tastes. I do think that in many cases this is financial - lower points means less profit on flipping. But, I think some of it is ego - I am special because I am on the mailing list for xyz winery that gets really high points. Look, I guess we all have some of these tendencies. After last week’s Gilman scores, I can (and do in my signature line) brag that I am on Ray Walker’s mailing list (but he reopened it so I am not so special). But, if I like Ray’s wines (and I do), I don’t see myself saying that I won’t buy it anymore if Gilman hands over rating Burgundy wineries owned by Americans to Jeff Leve and Jeff starts rating Ray’s wines a 60 (which actually would be a high score by Jeff for a Burgundy).

Sorry to thread jack but this is the second time I heard Ray was in John’s good graces, just curious, what were the scores?
TIA