Whole cluster- what do you prefer?

Cellar Rats (ITB)
1

We are starting to bring in Syrah and Vio(coferm) this next week and the stems are turning reddish brown and are pretty well lignified(ideal candidates for WC ferments). In the past we have destemmed the fruit and put in the stems. This year I am thinking of stomping them in macro bins and then dumping into the t bins/48’s. We have a brand new Lugana destemmer, and I am also considering destemming and throwing the stems back in. Which do you guys prefer and why?
Also, what perameters do you use for determining how much WC you will use based on stem lignification, style, etc.?
Cheers, mates!

2

John - It’s everyone to seek out his own style. In the Rhône, Clape and Graillot remain the main exponents of whole cluster, while most other producers have abandoned it. In Burgundy, there are more stem exponents, e.g., Romanée-Conti, Leroy, Bize, others that are moving that way, and some that are moving from stems toward the middle (e.g., Dujac). Last weekend, had a most interesting dinner comparing DRC (stems) with Jayer (adamantly against it) – I loved them both, although they certainly were quite different.

3

I’m no expert, John, just passing along some stuff I’ve read. Several years ago there was a book published that profiled “up and coming young winemakers”. I can’t for the life of me remember the title, but you can tell how old it is by some of the names: Zelma Long, Bob Lindquist, Adam Tolmach, Jim Clendenen, David Ramey, Bruno D’Alfonso, Steve Doerner (who was new to Cristom at the time) . . . you get my drift.

Anyway, one of the pinot noir specialists (and it may have been Steve who does quite a bit of whole cluster) said that he thought adding the stems back was “just nasty”. I don’t know why.

Just FWIW.

4

Jayer influence, which was quite considerable in the 1980s?

5

There’s a lot to stems, of course… so many factors in how they show / how much you can use.

I’ve seen the best results with stems that are drier (not necessarily more lignified, but they don’t flow sap when you break them and they taste nutty, not vegetal/green), clean cuts up in the rachis (which is typically more lignified), moderate alcohols (less harsh extraction), gentle punchdowns, no extended maceration, and just dropping the clusters in the tank whole.

I would think destemming would break a lot of stems and leave a lot of jacks, both of which would expose stems to flowing any remaining sap into the must.

Of course site, clone, vintage, weather, stems:juice ratio, temperatures and a million other things influence stem vinification as well.

6

I love stems in syrah…stems and syrah always (or nearly always) seems to be a great match.

Stems in pinot seems to be more of a case by case thing for me. For one thing, the potassium can be an issue…and tannins can replace acidity in syrah, but that doesn’t work as well with Pinot. Plus, syrah is rarely dominated by stems (or if it is, time seems to solve it)…but the same thing isn’t always true of Pinot. About 6 months ago I had a 1992 Calera Reed Pinot, and it was still dominated by stems and stem tannins. I love Calera, and I enjoyed this wine, but it would have been better with a lot less stems.

One nice thing about whole cluster is it slows down the fermentation, which is nice since Pinot has a tendency to blast through. Even whole berry doesn’t slow it down that much, mostly cuz pinot berries are more fragile than others. Syrah doesn’t have this problem, so don’t think this is a benefit here. In fact, when I’ve done whole cluster syrah, getting all the berries broken and fermented was a problem…so there was a reasonable amount of RS when the wine was pressed. It finished fermenting in barrel of course, but I’m not a fan of barrel fermented red wines. So the destem and add stems back idea appealed to me (with syrah anyways). Josh has a point about broken stems and getting sap into the must. But if you were to do a 100% whole cluster ferment then you’d have to stomp on the clusters…and that will break up the stems and cause as much of a sap issue. Seems like the real answer is to make sure you’re using ripe/lignified stems. So this seems like an excellent experiment to me.

Another interesting option is whole cluster viognier. I did this in my 05 syrah (my only syrah) and the floral aromatics from the viognier stems were incredible. Viognier stems can be tannic tho, so don’t use much…and I’d put them in a net bag so you could easily pull them out of the fermentor if you wanted. But the whole cluster viognier was a big plus imo.

Just my random opinions tho of course.

7

Although I have not tried it, I know someone that de-stems the fruit, bakes the stems in the sun for a day or two, and then throws them back in. I assume that this decreases sap and increases “ripeness” in the stems but have nothing other than watching it happen to base any judgment on.
Best, Jim

8

I have tasted stems done a few different ways. I love what stems bring to a number of different varieties, especially Pinot and Syrah. I toyed with the idea of stems in Sangiovese this year, but decided that the last thing I would need in Sangio is more tannin and less color.

As FL Jim says, baking them in the sun is one option. Honestly, next to a control, I couldn’t taste a difference in this one in Pinot noir in a trial once shown at World of Pinot. Seemed to me an awful lot of time spent for no benefit. Not to mention messy/space-consuming and potentially a contamination hazard. Very thankful someone took the time to do it and show it, though.

Destemming everything and then throwing them in afterwards seems to increase to me the negative impact stems can have. Overly green and hard. Perhaps due to exposing more of the vasculature to extraction? I do always request that lots where I intend to use a decent amount of stems be picked with clippers rather than knives to decrease ripping up the peduncles, but it’s based mostly on hearsay from a viticulturist whom I respect a great deal. Never done a side-by-side. The guys in the field hate it, so I try to keep this to a minimum.

Straight ahead with the lot in question seems to be a pretty good option to me. Occam’s Razor and all. Makes it especially easy if you have open-tops.

This year, I was destemming some Chard before doing some Syrah and the Chard stems smelled beautiful and spicy, so I decided to throw them in the Syrah ferment. As it is still in tank, the jury is out on this one. First time I have done this, as I usually don’t destem Chard, but needed the extra press capacity.

9

We have been adding the viognier whole cluster for the last three years, and I agree about the aromatics.

10

The stems are turning yellowish red over the last two days and are tasting more woody/spicy and less green/stalky in the last week. I’m thinking of doing a side by side trial - two tons destemmed and added back, two tons whole cluster and stomped, and two to four tons just destemmed in our new Lugana destemmer(the French, ahhem, Italian tickler). We only have enough Viognier for two or three tons at 5% per ton. The Viognier is at 26+ and still has a TA of .7. This will be fun!

11

One note on stamping by foot: barefoot won’t abrade the stems, they’ll stay pretty much intact. Gotta have tough feet, though. [basic-smile.gif]

12

Do 50+ whole cluster barefoot punchdowns a day and you can develop a Thai kick boxer look where your big toes are taped up because the bottoms are cut open from stems. Who does that many barefoot punchdowns? Don’t ask, it’s as retarded as it sounds :slight_smile:

13

do you have to be barefoot? no rubber boots or sand socks or wool socks or something?

or is that not artisan enough? [wink.gif]

14

We bought some fishin waders from Cabela (online) this year- they are pretty awesome- really nice sturdy neoprene. We had some crappy cheap ones last year that kept ripping. Can’t have that toe fungus in the wine. [bleh.gif] [wow.gif]

15

[thankyou.gif]

16

Foot stomped my grenache today - about 1/4 whole cluster . . . LOTS of fun . . . but hard work … . and yep, no gaitors here . . . gotta go barefoot!

Cheers!

17

Waders inhibit movement and are way too warm. Levering your legs from tank to tank, holding on to the edges of the tanks, trodding around, etc, non stop for an hour or two at a go is a good workout. The waders are too cumbersome, heavy and above all hot.

18

I detemmed on the Grand Cru fruit but left maybe 25-30% stems on the Morey. The fermentation took 3 days longer but who knows why. I typically like a bit of stems. Nut this was more or less an experiment.

19

Wow, stomping is a work out. I just went al natural on it. I filled the macro bins 3/4 full of syrah, dumped in three full buckets of gorgeous Viognier in each bin and stomped away- pretty fun actually, but a bit wierd feeling. I am going to consolidate them into t bins(my fermenter of choice) and pitch the d254, d80, and Symphony yeasts today.

20

John:
Don’t pitch any yeast! Let it go spontaneus and go the distance.
E