whole cluster fermentation and Pinot

S_L_Clayton · November 4, 2009, 10:20pm

Bob Wood piqued my interest on this subject. Pretty good read.

http://www.allbusiness.com/retail-trade/food-beverage-stores-beer-wine-liquor/347591-1.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Seems to me that this is a part of wine making that isn’t talked about as much as the public would like. I guess if you do a little digging you would be able to find out if producer x does or doesn’t use whole cluster. Interesting topic.

Eric_Anderson · November 5, 2009, 2:19am

Shouldn’t this be a poll?

As a generalization, and w/o reading the article, I like whole cluster more than destemmed. Discuss.

Roy_Piper · November 5, 2009, 3:56am

I also have not read the article, and I like destemmed more.

Jim_Cowan · November 5, 2009, 3:17pm

FWIW, Rhys pinots are 100% whole cluster.
Pretty good results there.
Best, Jim

S_L_Clayton · November 5, 2009, 4:03pm

Well read the fracking article.

Berry_Crawford · November 5, 2009, 4:34pm

I think a winemaker needs to look at each vineyard each vintage and make a guess. There is probablly nothing that less lends itself to a formulaic (sp?) approach than whole cluster.

larry_schaffer · November 5, 2009, 5:23pm

As with everything else with wine, unless A/B comparisons are made, such as what was done at WOPN, it really is difficult to say whether it is ‘better’ or not to go whole cluster.

Also, unless attempts are made to go partial whole cluster vs. 100% vs none, again, it’s difficult to say what is ‘better’ . …

Just another data point this morning . …

Cheers!

S_L_Clayton · November 5, 2009, 5:35pm

The cool thing to do would be a side by side with the same fruit.

larry_schaffer · November 5, 2009, 5:44pm

Doing it this year - albeit with Larner Grenache!!! And with Watch Hill Grenache!!!

Cheers!

Cris_Whetstone · November 5, 2009, 5:46pm

This plus the experience with previous vintages can steer where they might go. It also may depend on the preferences on the wine maker. I don’t think there are any hard and fast rules about it.

John_Cabot · November 5, 2009, 5:54pm

We took two tons of Syrah this year, dumped 100 lbs of viognier in each, destemmed one, whole berry, and foot stomped the other- whole cluster. The aromatics in the barrels are already completely different. Can’t wait till they go through ML so we can taste the differences.

Tom_Gutting · November 5, 2009, 5:55pm

Amen about no hard and fast rules. I do dig me some stemminess in a Pinot, though … yum.

S_L_Clayton · November 5, 2009, 6:17pm

That’s funny, I would think somone from Humbolt County would have a natural aversion to stems.
It will be interesting to hear how these turn out.

Eric_Lundblad · November 6, 2009, 12:30am

I loved the part of the article where they described the advantages of whole cluster Pinot as being “rich with such aromas as asparagus and canned green beans”. Also loved the site hosting the article hyperlinked green beans to recipes and more information about green beans.

I also think whole cluster works better on some vineyards than others, and better in some vintages than others.

On thing about whole cluster is the trade off between WC and extended maceration. My experience is that EM gives a lot of the same effect (more phenols and helps to temper excessively fruity wines) without the “rich with aromas as asparagus and canned green beans”

Tim_Corliss · November 6, 2009, 7:49am

berry, good to see you here.

Todd_Hamina · November 6, 2009, 4:18pm

Making Pinot and not using whole cluster is like having sex without an orgasm.

S_L_Clayton · November 6, 2009, 6:10pm

I think that needs to go on your website!

Vincent_Fritzsche · November 6, 2009, 7:04pm

Randy_Caparoso · November 6, 2009, 9:29pm

In agreement with some of the previous comments, the vintners with the most experience with whole cluster fermentation definitely take a vintage by vintage approach to it. Generally speaking, it’s preferred, but in cooler years where stems and seeds are not completely transitioned towards brown (as opposed to green) stages, these vintners back off, since “green” tannins don’t do anyone or any wine any good.

Whole cluster fermentation also often goes hand in hand with natural yeast fermentation as well as organic viticulture (can’t have weird stuff on skins, after all), since the whole idea behind it is to achieve slower fermentations of the varying rates, which occurs in the presence of multiple strains of wild yeasts (the ultimate goal being to increase aroma, flavor and textural complexity).

Here’s a piece on Cristom’s Steve Doerner that talks about this a little bit: Still crazy good after all these years: Oregon's Cristom Pinot Noirs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

scottpaulpn · November 6, 2009, 10:35pm

I agree that it is hugely vintage and vineyard dependent, not to mention a major stylistic decision of the winemaker. We generally destem 100%, but have experimented with varying amounts of whole cluster from time to time.

In 2008 we did an interesting trial - taking the same fruit from a single block of Momtazi Vineyard and fermenting half 100% destemmed and the other half 25% whole cluster. We ended up preferring the partial whole-cluster lot, and in fact bottled it separately for a wine we’ll release sometime next year… Always a fascinating subject, to be sure, and one with no clear-cut, definitive answers…