White Burgundy 15 years on.

[David_Bu3ker]

Have their been studies of DIAM and premox? I thought most believe it is multi-factor, with cork playing at most just a part of the blame?

All I can say is that Fevre was a train wreck before DIAM, and I have had zero issues since they switched. Zero.

Jadot is also light years better now with the enclosure switch. Obviously we aren’t 15 years past the 11 vintage, but so far it looks pretty successful

Well forget 15. The 2002 Fevre wines were dying by 2006.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

All I can say is that Fevre was a train wreck before DIAM, and I have had zero issues since they switched. Zero.

Jadot is also light years better now with the enclosure switch. Obviously we aren’t 15 years past the 11 vintage, but so far it looks pretty successful

Well forget 15. The 2002 Fevre wines were dying by 2006.

I’m extremely thankful that I wasn’t yet cellaring wine when the 02 Fevre’s were released. I’ve seen more than enough sullen faces when bottles have been produced and opened by those that bought them back in 04ish

[William_Kelley]

It’s an interesting question about what the wines are generally like today versus before premox started. My amateur perception is that the wines are more open, less intensely acidic, and need less age than they once did.

Interesting question. I think your observations are correct, but also that the wines, at least when they open up, are less rich, muscular and dramatic. Post #5 above makes some salient points in that regard.

Climate, and viticulture’s failure to evolve in tandem with climate (that’s changing, happily), clearly has plenty to do with it; but so I think does technical “progress”. Look at Jasper Morris’ 1988 (in white Burgundy terms, is that antediluvian or prelapsarian?) White Burgundy book where the up-and-coming producers are all talking about elegance and what they have learnt in the New World (caveat: I last read it in the Bodleian Library in 2012, so that may be a caricature). For many, that meant gentler, whole cluster pressing and clearer musts—something the arrival of pneumatic presses, easy ways of measuring turbidity, and clarification enzymes made much easier to realize. In retrospect, was that the right direction? This is a question that I think a lot of thoughtful winemakers today are pondering.

[Peter_Chiu]

Hmm…15 years already. What a sad experience …

I did not have problem with white Burgundy from mid-1980s right into to the late mid-1990s. First got really burnt by holding onto too many CC as follows :

Bonneau du Martray - Corton Charlemagne 97 (899526$89)
Bonneau du Martray - Corton Charlemagne 98 (899526$89)
Dubreuil-Fontaine – Corton Charlemagne 99 (724476$73)
Dubreuil-Fontaine – Corton Charlemagne 00 (711176 $82)

Then it got burnt again by buying too many white Burgundy from vintage 2002 and also got a train wreck with Fevre from vintage 2004.

BUT…for my purchase of the early 2000s, I adjusted from my experience ( learned in the late 1990s ) but checking the color of the bottles. I ended up ( as I needed to )…open them as soon as I noticed the color is turning slight yellow - to avoid premox.

By doing so…I was not lucky as I could not try to age most of then due to premox and I ended up …drinking nearly all of them …way too, too young to avoid premox.

From my above experience …I have zero interest now with their DIAM…due to the fact that white burgundy needs - long bottle-aging and need long-term plan.

That being said…I still a few bottles of g-cru whites from vintage 2000 waiting to be opened : for example - L.Latour - Les Demoiselles 00 (10225861 $ 286-$210 -$189); L.Latour - Bienvenue-Bat-Montrachet 00 (881086 $208-$156-$123) and Drouhin - Corton Charlemagne 00 (738781$119 $89).

The first price listed behind the product code was the released price and the 2nd ( and/or 3rd ) prices were the discounted prices.

So…what about my life with white wine :

I gave up and switched to drinking Chardonney by Trapiche for the last many years.



I am like David Bu3ker said : ****All I can say is that Fevre was a train wreck before DIAM, and I have had zero issues since they switched. Zero. **** and **** Well forget 15. The 2002 Fevre wines were dying by 2006. ****

[Peter_Chiu]

**** I’m extremely thankful that I wasn’t yet cellaring wine when the 02 Fevre’s were released.****

Keith…you are lucky.

I am not trying to impress anyone - but here were the details of my purchase of just the 1er cru for vintage 2002 - which was supposed to one of the great vintage. I bought all of them by multiple bottles. I still have one bottle of the Jadot - Les Chamsp Gain left as the color still looks OK.

Jadot - Grandes Ruchottes 02 (10293804 $112)
Jadot - CdlGarenne 02 (10293644 $105)
Jadot - Les Champs Gain 02 (10293732 $83)
Jadot - Morgeots -CdlChappele 02 (10293652 $92-$76$53)
Bouchard - Meursault - Perrieres 02 (10289717 $89)
Bouchard - Meursault - Charmes 02 (10289661 $83)
J-N. Gagnard - La Boudriotte 02 (10290540 $85)
J.N. Gangard - CdlMaltroye 02 (10290460 $76 )
J.N. Gagnard - Les Champs Gain 02 (10290531 $77-$67 )
H. Boillot - Meursault -Les Charmes 02 (626853 $119)
Latour-Giraud - Meursault-Charme 02 ($75)
Remi Jobard - Genevrières 02 (10291147 $ 84$ 71)

[Peter_Chiu]

OOOHHH…but when you HIT one that’s ON… Keeps you chasing…

Yes…, yes and yes. I am with you here.

I was very impolite to express my bad opinion against someone posted the text : what is white burgundy !

[chetkern]

As an aside, Recently I shared at an after party of Le Fete du Champagne and a Rodolphe Peters dinner in NYC, a bottle of 85 Batard made by Richard Blain under the Blain Gagnard/ Delegrange-Bachelet label with Rodolphe, Alex Chartogne, and other Champenois’ that was mind bogglingly profound. We were all pretty speechless in uniformly and silently acknowledging that the heights that this bottle hit, would be something else for the Champenois’ to aim for.

I drank an '83 Bâtard from Delegrange-Bachelet in November that was similarly magical! Didn’t realize it was made by Richard Blain.

Photo attached from another bottle from the same case.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I’ve had great bottles under DIAM from Jadot and others especially from Chablis but none at 20 years and for me that will be the true test whether the wines evolve like pre-95 white burgs with indelible flavors that in my burg and wine drinking experience are singular, the finest and by far the most pleasurable beverages ever produced.
I’m beginning to feel guilty opening bottles of my old treasures but “this is not a dress rehearsal.”
As Alan knows, I was ahead of the curve in acquiring/cellaring Blanc de Blancs Champagne with many entering into and or already in to the zone of peak drinkability.
That’s today’s reality, however.

As an aside, Recently I shared at an after party of Le Fete du Champagne and a Rodolphe Peters dinner in NYC, a bottle of 85 Batard made by Richard Fontaine under the Blain Gagnard/ Delegrange-Bachelet label with Rodolphe, Alex Chartogne, and other Champenois’ that was mind bogglingly profound. We were all pretty speechless in uniformly and silently acknowledging that the heights that this bottle hit, would be something else for the Champenois’ to aim for.

Cheers-

Stay safe to you all

Chet, The 2007 Fevre Vaulorent I opened a few weeks ago (under Diam) reached a crazy level of complexity and precision with seve, and it was in very Chablis style. That’s 14 years but it only reached that apex on Day 2, with a glass left in the bottle. It’s only one data point, but it bodes well for the Fevre Chablis PC and GC under Diam.

[Peter_Chiu]

Premox…existed and happened not just due to the cork since vintage 1995-1996 as there were other reasons.

Changing the cork to diam…will definitely help. Wish it is as simple as that.

BUT …by calling it …due to DIAM…is more simple and it is OK as well… .

[lleichtman]

We got so burned on premoxed WB that we switched to Chablis only and have not been disappointed.

[alan_weinberg]

Have their been studies of DIAM and premox? I thought most believe it is multi-factor, with cork playing at most just a part of the blame?

certainly multi factorial w batonnage, gentler pressings, etc as reasons in addition to cork but I look at it like a bomb that won’t go off till you pull the pin or light the fuse and that pin/fuse is the cork. A better seal keeps the chain reaction of premox “explosion” from happening, so a “dud” is actually a good bottle. Bizarre metaphor but it works for me. Some corks are faulty, others not, explaining why only some bottles in a case are affected. Diam is consistent. As are screwcaps.

[David_Bu3ker]

We got so burned on premoxed WB that we switched to Chablis only and have not been disappointed.

You clearly didn’t buy any 2002-2006 Fevre (who thankfully later switched to DIAM).

[alan_weinberg]

We got so burned on premoxed WB that we switched to Chablis only and have not been disappointed.

You clearly didn’t buy any 2002-2006 Fevre (who thankfully later switched to DIAM).

or 96 Droin and others.

[Howard_Cooper]

Premox…existed and happened not just due to the cork since vintage 1995-1996 as there were other reasons.

Changing the cork to diam…will definitely help. Wish it is as simple as that.

BUT …by calling it …due to DIAM…is more simple and it is OK as well… .

As far as I know (don’t always look at enclosures of wines brought by others), I have not had a premoxed wine closed with DIAM. How about the rest of you?

[Peter_Chiu]

Howard…I have no idea but thanks for asking.

After vintage 2004…I only buy a few bottles here and there. For example …Bouchard Meursault 1er Perrieres ( just for a maximum of 3 each). I continue to buy and keep my allocation of Lafon until vintage 2009. I stopped as the prices were getting higher and higher.

For the last few years, I buy multiple bottles PYCM lower level - but keep a very carefully eyes on them. If the color is not right…I open it very fast.

[Peter_Chiu]

Have their been studies of DIAM and premox? I thought most believe it is multi-factor, with cork playing at most just a part of the blame?

certainly multi factorial w batonnage, gentler pressings, etc as reasons in addition to cork but I look at it like a bomb that won’t go off till you pull the pin or light the fuse and that pin/fuse is the cork. A better seal keeps the chain reaction of premox “explosion” from happening, so a “dud” is actually a good bottle. Bizarre metaphor but it works for me. Some corks are faulty, others not, explaining why only some bottles in a case are affected. Diam is consistent. As are screwcaps.

Well said…

I am sure Alan and I will be buying …Bonneau du Martray - Corton Charlemagne …if we were at our late 30s.

[JoelD]

I had an interesting chat with Doug from Arrowine a couple weeks ago. He swears that the premox issue is because producers don’t load up on the sulfur like they used to. Pretty insightful thought. I don’t know quite enough to argue either way.

[Keith_Levenberg]

I had an interesting chat with Doug from Arrowine a couple weeks ago. He swears that the premox issue is because producers don’t load up on the sulfur like they used to. Pretty insightful thought. I don’t know quite enough to argue either way.

The problem with that theory is that they went through a phase of loading up on sulfur after premox emerged (the 2004s smelled like a sulfur factory) and it didn’t change anything.

[ybarselah]

Otherwise I’ll continue to console myself with “Burgundian”, mature Blanc de Blancs, “the other white burgundy.”

this.

[Keith_A_k_e_r_s]

I had an interesting chat with Doug from Arrowine a couple weeks ago. He swears that the premox issue is because producers don’t load up on the sulfur like they used to. Pretty insightful thought. I don’t know quite enough to argue either way.

The problem with that theory is that they went through a phase of loading up on sulfur after premox emerged (the 2004s smelled like a sulfur factory) and it didn’t change anything.

Which also lead to Meadows then coming up with a new term: permanently reduced