White Bordeaux and Premox

[David_Glasser]

Premox in white rhone is well known to “reverse” after a period of time. It’s a topic that’s been covered on many online forums, with general agreement, but rarely explained. I don’t think the chemistry is fully understood.

I have read claims of this for a long time too, but in retrospect I find wondering whether this indeed reflects a real phenomenon or whether the Rhone was just patient zero for premox. Monsieur X drinks a lovely white Rhone… another bottle a few years later is oxidized… and another bottle a few years after that is lovely… Monsieur X concludes the oxidation is just a phase. The same pattern elsewhere, 10 years later on, now that everybody knows premox is a thing, gets attributed to premox. Either conclusion can flow from the same facts. An interesting epistemological problem.

I agree with Keith. White Rhône can go through a strange phase that to me is easily distinguished from premox. When it turns brown and tastes like overcooked sherry, it’s dead. Had 2 bottles in a case of 1995 Beaucastel VV start to turn brown in 2008 so I held them to see if it would reverse. One in 2012 was dead while its case-mates remained fine. I held the second until 2019. It was even darker and DNPIM nasty. N of only 2 and I won’t say it can’t ever happen but the number I’ve seen reverse by following a dark bottle longitudinally is zero.

[Craig_G]

Premox in white rhone is well known to “reverse” after a period of time. It’s a topic that’s been covered on many online forums, with general agreement, but rarely explained. I don’t think the chemistry is fully understood.

I have read claims of this for a long time too, but in retrospect I find wondering whether this indeed reflects a real phenomenon or whether the Rhone was just patient zero for premox. Monsieur X drinks a lovely white Rhone… another bottle a few years later is oxidized… and another bottle a few years after that is lovely… Monsieur X concludes the oxidation is just a phase. The same pattern elsewhere, 10 years later on, now that everybody knows premox is a thing, gets attributed to premox. Either conclusion can flow from the same facts. An interesting epistemological problem.

I’ve wondered this too. There is no way anyone can know if a given bottle “reverses” oxidation. The other thing about Rhones is that even some of the immature aromas (like straw) overlap with some characteristics of oxidation. We had a pretty stunning 1994 Beaucastel Blanc a few years ago and it took me a while to convince myself it wasn’t oxidized… which I was expecting based on some pretty brutal 1995 and 1996 experiences.

[Zev_R]

https://www.wineberserkers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1991338#p1991338

Surprised no one else dug this up:

@In an earlier thread

IME, white Bordeaux has had the same issues across the board with premox as white Burgundy since the 1994 vintage (which was probably also the year that it started in Burgundy, but due to the indifferent quality of the whites there no one really noticed). Sadly, 1994 was a brilliant year for white Bordeaux, but the wines premoxed, as has each subsequent vintage since that time. I am not really sure why the issue has not been associated with white Bordeaux more widely in the minds of collectors, but perhaps this is just a reflection of the smaller percentage of the market owned by white Bordeaux and the quite small quantitites produced of the top wines… Like white Burgundy and other heavily premoxed regions, a great category of complex, vibrant and fully mature white Bordeaux has been lost since '93 and the causes of the issue remain unsolved…

[Andy_Sc]

I was just over in the 2019 EP thread pondering who buys and who drinks the top Bdx Blancs - production is way higher than most White Burgundies, and we see tonnes of TNs for those quite regularly. Would be great to see more notes and understand the trade-offs drinking young vs significant age and anything in between. I’ve experimented with DdCs but have had no opportunities to try old examples or appetite to spend on the Haut Brion Blanc or similar! FWIW, I have not found high / higher rates of premox in White Rhones - my last oxidised Rhone was actually a '98 Beaucastel Rouge! With climate change, recent technical improvements and good run of vintages, there’s certainly a lot more good White Rhone available than 10 years ago, and some decent values too.

There are roughly 30-40 millions bottles of white Bordeaux produced a year vs roughly 120 millions of white Burgundy.

[Rauno_E_NZ]

Andy, but at the top the numbers are very, very different. There are hundreds of cases of LMHB Blanc and hundreds of bottles of many examples of grand cru white burgundy.

[Dale_Williams]

Andy, but at the top the numbers are very, very different. There are hundreds of cases of LMHB Blanc and hundreds of bottles of many examples of grand cru white burgundy.

But there hundreds of different wines from Grand Cru white Burgundy vineyards, and probably another 1000 1er wines that one would consider cellaring. There are maybe 10-12 producers in dry white Bordeaux on that level. Actually that might be stretching it. HBB, LMHB/Laville, Pavillon Blanc, DDC, Pape Clement, Ygrec, maybe Carbonnieux and SHL. I don’t think most people are cellaring La Louviere, Fieuzal, etc. Who am I forgetting? The vast majority of white Bordeaux is simple Bdx blanc, Entre deux Mers, etc. I think Bonneau du Martray CC is bigger than any of the ones I mention, and Drouhin/Laguiche Montrachet is probably more than HBB and Laville/LMHB combined.

[Rauno_E_NZ]

Thanks Dale! That’s good info I didn’t realise. I would still expect to have come across more TNs here for those whites, but as this thread shows there are quite a few here who buy them and perhaps I have been inattentive. And helpful to be forewarned lest I get tempted by LMHB.

[DougS]

Do Rieslings premox?

yes, been a problem w Trimbach Clos Ste Hune and FE, others I’m sure.

Yes, but I haven’t seen it or heard any reports of it in German or Austrian Rieslings.

[DougS]

Premox in white rhone is well known to “reverse” after a period of time. It’s a topic that’s been covered on many online forums, with general agreement, but rarely explained. I don’t think the chemistry is fully understood.

I have read claims of this for a long time too, but in retrospect I find wondering whether this indeed reflects a real phenomenon or whether the Rhone was just patient zero for premox. Monsieur X drinks a lovely white Rhone… another bottle a few years later is oxidized… and another bottle a few years after that is lovely… Monsieur X concludes the oxidation is just a phase. The same pattern elsewhere, 10 years later on, now that everybody knows premox is a thing, gets attributed to premox. Either conclusion can flow from the same facts. An interesting epistemological problem.

I also think the whole reversal of oxidation idea is a myth. I understand awkward phases, but oxidized or whatever premox is are something else. I doubt they get better when that’s what’s happening. Of course, “common knowledge” and all that… It’s interesting to me that people take producers’ word for it on something pretty outlandish given what most producers in Burgundy said about premox for so long.