Where to look to next, cellar development

Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r · May 2, 2020, 2:17pm

This.

Marcus_Goodfellow · May 2, 2020, 3:08pm

Plenty of good advice here and so many regions to explore! So I won’t add one but will pile onto Champagne. As others have said, it’s different enough that it really complements your cellar. Bit what is champagne good for? Everything! I’ve gotten a pretty hefty champagne bug because it gives me so much of what I’m looking for in fine wine.

Totally yummy, goes with nearly any food, easy to appreciate, and yet with plenty of depth and complexity to geek out over. Tremendous variety but still it’s not too hard to figure out where to start. Lots of entry level wines, but also some premium options to step up to that aren’t ludicrous. Generally widely available.

For me and my friends Champagne is a regular part of our wine consumption. And for non-wine geeks it always seems special!

In your price range some ideas are Bereche Brut, Pierre Peters Cuvée de Reserve, or Chartogne-Taillet St. Anne.

Thanks, yes champagne is an underdeveloped area for me, problem being for some reason I can’t shake the feeling that opening a bottle of champagne should be done at festive occasions only

Maybe I should get over it and start drinking it more casually, have heard of wonderful and intriguing combinations such as (Korean) fried chicken with champagne!?

I had this issue for a little while. Then I taught myself that Tuesday was a festive occasion. And sure enough, as soon as the Champagne was opened it was very festive!

Once I reached 50, I decided that any day I was still breathing was a festive occasion. And as soon as the Champagne gets opened it’s a special day.

Some of my every day(almost) faves:

Diebolt-Vallois Blanc de Blanc
Lallement NV
Bereche NV
Pierre Moncuit “Davos”
Lassaigne “Les Vins de Montgueux”
Doyard BdB

Vinod_S · May 2, 2020, 3:37pm

A. Great collection, Musar and Prüm are 2 of the best values in wine for their complexity
B. Other pockets I’ve found in the $50 range: entry grower champagne or grande marque (go to a tasting and find a house style that aligns with your palate), Lopez de Heredia, Chablis, most Burgundy is probably a bit more in the US than flagged budget but when possible go with producer over vineyard/vintage in that price range, Loire reds, non-classified Bordeaux (Canterle, Labegorce, Lanesssan, many others).

For stretch buys under $100, would take a look at old classic Napa Cabernets at auction and Barolo.

J_Rock · May 2, 2020, 3:40pm

Hi all,

Thanks, blown away by the responses here! I realise that my cellar is modest in size, but I am trying to stock quality and things i like now for drinking later, while at the same time keeping costs reasonable. With a baby and wife at home, i have to manage my expenses on my hobbies, as I am sure many on this board can relate to. This means that I try to actively look out for wines that " punch above their weight" as it were. For my money wines like JJ Prum and Musar for example fit that bill. As you guys can tell I do enjoy my rieslings, both dry and sweet along all the predikat levels. This leads me to another question; Is it worth branching into sauternes seeing as i have had quite a few auslese (and above)? Have never had Sauternes but would there be a large difference between that and say a good sweet Mosel wine?

My local wine store offeres tastings, but have found the focus on to be more on the " lower end wines" (I don’t mean this disrespectfully) so limited interest for me even though it made me realise I definately do not like Orange wine

Am trying to taste as much as I can, but really appreciate your input to give me a nudge in the right direction!

thanks from a (relative) wine newbie

Obviously, everyone has their own preferences, so you really just need to taste for yourself. However, I wouldn’t just buy a ton of Sauternes assuming you’ll love them just because you love sweet Rieslings. Riesling, especially the sweeter variety, are my favorite varietal, but I cannot get into Sauternes. Most of them I don’t really care for and while a 1975 d’Yquem I had recently was great, I didn’t enjoy it as much as many of the better Rieslings I’ve had, and for the price, it’s no brainer for me to buy Riesling instead. The power, electricity, precision, and purity I so often get with Riesling almost always eludes me with the higher ABV and oaked Sauternes. I’d buy an Eiswein, BA, TBA, or even GKA over a Sauternes any day.

This, of course, is just my personal opinion (and I may very well be in the minority), so try some for yourself and see what you think.

R_Frankel · May 2, 2020, 4:26pm

Marcus, every posting of yours feels like something I could have written, perhaps if I were a bit more clever! Our tastes align very well. I WILL come visit once travel is possible on my now long delayed Oregon tasting trip.

Glenn_L_e_v_i_n_e · May 2, 2020, 4:31pm

Figure out if you’re lucky enough to be a lover of high-end domestic Zinfandel.

If you are they can become the red backbone of your cellar within the price range you specified.

Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r · May 2, 2020, 5:48pm

Also this. Even basic zinfandel bottlings from certain producers (not just single vineyard designates) have the ability to age a little and gain complexity.

Marcus_Goodfellow · May 3, 2020, 3:08am

That would be fantastic. We always enjoy visits with Berserkers. But harvest is close to being a member of a submarine crew. Doubling down on it with SIP has been great for the wines I’ve dug out of the cellar but I think both Megan and I are very ready to see some real people again.

I owe my very linguistically talented father for any cleverness in my posts. Although I don’t think I appreciated how helpful it would be at the time…

Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r · May 3, 2020, 5:04pm

So true.

Joined WB when I was 28. Had just a 32-bottle wine fridge then and a 12-bottle rack built into our bar cabinet. Now I’m 33 and have ~500 bottles in my collection in off-site storage.

DougS · May 4, 2020, 7:22pm

Mat, you have an impressive collection. I wish I had exactly your collection a few years ago when I had a similar quantity. Yes, learn about France. Yes, focus on the classics at first (and there are a LOT more than 2 classic regions). You clearly have some wine knowledge already, so it won’t be as difficult as you think to learn about the areas you don’t know yet. Tasting as much as possible is great, but don’t ignore the equally important advice to read as much as possible. Tasting alone doesn’t teach one much.

For another opinion, I would definitely not want to delay purchasing the wines that will take the longest to mature. Buying some older wines here and there totally makes sense, but you’ll have the best results with wines you bought on release and stored yourself. That means buying long agers while you’re young, really starting as early as possible. Then you can buy some older wines to get a sense of when you want to drink what’s already in your cellar. I am also glad I bought some wines early on that are now showing maturity around 10 years from release. It’s good motivation to keep collecting and to stay patient with the wines that will reward age the most.

Another related note is that many/most of the wines I’d like to drink with age on them are prohibitively expensive to buy that way. I guess if you’re a big Bordeaux drinker, lucky you, but that whole “older vintages […] below current release pricing” happens almost never with great producers in almost any other region. Quite the opposite. (yes, there are some exceptions, but I’m having trouble thinking of any that I’d want to buy)

Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m · May 4, 2020, 7:52pm

I find that phenomenon is alive and well w/r/t Napa and Sonoma wines (Cabs. and Merlot, in particular).

Max_S1 · May 4, 2020, 9:51pm

Questions for both of you gents: Can you cellar the Bereche Brut/Pierre Peters Cuvee for an amount of time that will allow it to show some age and if so how long? Also, how do you feel about cava/cremant for everyday drinking and do you have any recommendations?

I appreciate you both!

DougS · May 4, 2020, 10:42pm

Yes, that’s true. I guess there are some in that category that do appeal to me, but not many. Burgundy, Champagne, Piedmont, Rhône, even Germany, though, totally different story. Basically, most of the wines I collect are generally far more expensive with age (assuming good vintage and provenance).

R_Frankel · May 5, 2020, 1:46am

I haven’t tried to age these kinds of Champagnes. I buy them and drink them within a year or two. Maybe others will have opinions. Worth a look at CT reviews, maybe some experiences there worth reviewing. One slight challenge is knowing how old your NV wine actually is! At the next price point up ($50-$75) I think there would be more options that I’d have more confidence aging.

Also I don’t have much experience with other sparklers but have enjoyed some Cremants more than any Cava I can recall.

Brian_S_t_o_t_t_e_r · May 5, 2020, 2:22am

Not sure about these two wines specifically, but generally I think you can keep a NV bottling for up to 5 years post-disgorgement and see some age/evolution before it starts to fade. Certain producers’ bottlings will last longer of course.

Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m · May 5, 2020, 5:56am

Yep, I feel that. Napa and Sonoma are pretty much dead to me these days, but for those aged no-name gems that can be acquired on the cheap. I’ve been pretty satisfied with the pricing I’ve seen on German Riesling at auction, but I am, admittedly, not talking any of the uber-premium stuff ---- more like the “good, wine geek drinking” type stuff. Still have to pay a premium, but it’s not a whole lot more than storage costs would have been over the same time period.

A1ex_H · May 5, 2020, 12:40pm

Lots of great advice on this thread. I’m of a similar age but a little further along in my collecting journey. France is definitely worth exploring. I would probably start with Bordeaux because you can find left bank examples in your price range with enough age to the point that you can start enjoying the wines to see if you want to cellar more examples. There are lots of UK merchants who can help you with this. I find Farr Vintners tends to have the most older stock available at good prices but there are a host of great online merchants.

Burgundy is definitely worth exploring too - it makes up the majority of my cellar and it’s a region you’ll almost certainly be drawn to. That being said, I tend to find Bordeaux to be better value for where you’re currently looking to pick up bottles and it’s an easier place to start.

Tom_W · December 11, 2020, 3:06pm

You might like to add more Produttori and get some Montefico Riserva.

Still in Italy you might want to look at Tuscany more. I see you have Il Poggione, a great benchmark value punch above its weight wine. CC and CCR’s are even more affordable and punch above their weight and pay off with cellar time. that’s something I learned hanging out on wineberserkers. And cheaper but good QPR Super Tuscan’s if you like Bordeaux blends. And also still in Italy, Etna if you like a more finesse Burgandy styles.

In France, more Champagne.

And its probably already factored in to your plan, but make sure you have a comprehensive list of go to cellar defenders that drink well early so you aren’t tempted to open up your better ones too early. The drink early cellar defenders are also a good way to explore new regions/varieties and if you like them you can move up to the more serious versions to help do that cellar development you’re looking at.

I’d add that in highlighting Italy and Champagne you are drawing attention to wines that are not subject to the current 25% tariff! That’s nice.

Tom_W · December 11, 2020, 3:11pm

IMO the glaring “roundish cellar for all situations” omission is champagne/sparkling. I’m interested in why people are suggesting more Italian reds and more sweet wines, it sounds like you know what you like there and are pretty covered (although I could never disagree with adding Barolo, nerello, and Sangiovese to any cellar). a couple things that are not covered by 90% of your cellar are 1) sparkles 2) French non-cab grapes 3) sparkles.

sparklers are the big one here. they go with everything, they’re uniquely different anything that makes up 90% of your cellar, and there’s occasions where sparkling wine is the only answer that makes sense. I also think any well rounded cellar needs a selection of pinot and Syrah. especially pinot, if nothing else because its all some people will drink. it fits a lot of foods that are poor matches for the tannic reds that make up 2/3 of your cellar as well.

Regarding champagne/sparkling, I agree. I’d count myself as a novice and late to the wisdom of having sparkling wines (semi-)regularly rather than as a ritualistic special occasion beverage. Note also that the pandemic has resulted in a glut of champagne. Though the regulatory body that governs champagne production will limit current production (even though recent harvest quality was said to be excellent - very sad), there is a current glut. I’ve heard that the big houses have the balance sheet to dig in their heels without much discounting. But deals have been coming and will continue to come. As I mentioned, champagne is not included in the 25% tariff. (However, I did have a discussion with a retailer who said that many importers have been trying to “spread the pain” of the 25% tariffs across the portfolio.)

MattBerto · December 11, 2020, 4:00pm

I’m just here to express mild amusement that the OP has but together a nice collection of German and Italian wines, but is lacking on France has “doesn’t know where to begin”. Meanwhile I find German wines utterly impenetrable and know squat about Italy (Barolo’s good, right?). Meanwhile France is pretty straightforward, as long as you’re not going too deep into the Langudoc or Provence (and don’t mind your Burgundy knowledge being limited to “it’s mostly Pinot Noir”). Of course both of us could bridge our respective blind spots without too much difficultly, just goes to show it’s about what you put your time into.

Buy more Champagne, drink it all the time. The odds of me enjoying a random $50 bottle of Champagne are higher than a $50 random bottle from any other given region.