Where are we at on fining and filtration for reds, whites, and beyond?

Scott_Tallman · April 5, 2021, 6:33pm

Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that “red Burgundy doesn’t take to being fined any more”). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of “modern” versus “old fashioned” winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It’s a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.

Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on…

Marcus_Goodfellow · April 5, 2021, 6:45pm

Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that “red Burgundy doesn’t take to being fined any more”). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of “modern” versus “old fashioned” winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It’s a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.

Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on…

I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.

Scott_Tallman · April 5, 2021, 7:04pm

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that “red Burgundy doesn’t take to being fined any more”). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of “modern” versus “old fashioned” winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It’s a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.

Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on…

I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.

Trust me, I get it and personally don’t think a producer of wine or beer needs to go as far as labeling a beer as “vegan.” I’d have a lot of wasted wine in my cellar if I wrote your winery off as not being sufficiently vegan.

But to help consumers, whether they be vegan or merely trying to minimize animal products, the more info a consumer can discern on the techniques used that would help them decide whether to consume said product the better (whether that’s label or website).

One of my favorite breweries in Seattle does this and the owner gave everyone a advance notice when he switched from refermenting his beers with gyle to honey. I greatly appreciated the candor, and while I no longer drink most of his beers (he still makes a few with gyle), I will continue to support him as much as I can. My take on the OP was that he was merely advocating for similar disclosures.

I understand the position of those that don’t see the value in providing such information. Consumers will react accordingly.

Todd_Hamina · April 5, 2021, 7:46pm

I must correct myself. Looks like there’s room to fine and filter and be Biodynamic…

3.11

Fining agents

Organic
No organic fining agents derived
Egg white from Demeter/organic eggs, Demeter milk and milk products, if
from animals

unavailable organic, Casein.
Non-organic
Bentonite
Bentonite (non-detectible levels of dioxin and arsenic), activated charcoal, Copper sulphate (0.5ppm max), aeration, oxygen including Micro Ox

3.12
Filtration

Organic
Allowable materials Not defined

Cellulose, textile (unbleached/chlorine free)
Non-organic
Bentonite
Diatomaceous earth

Demeter International wine standards: version June 2008

\

as an aside I have yet to hear two people describe “Natural” winemaking the same way, so I will reserve comment on that.

Marshall_Manning · April 5, 2021, 8:21pm

I don’t think that I can comfortably ever label a wine vegan. We don’t use any animal products in the cellar. But vineyards are full of life. Most growers kill gophers and voles, and most fruit farmed in an organically farmed vineyard arrives at the winery with an abundance of insect life on it. You can’t sort out all the bugs. Nor can you stop a fruit fly(or 10,000 of them) from flying over a fermenter at peak fermentation and dying from the CO2.

I also think that yeast are living creatures, more so than cheese at least.

I also guarantee that when the thresher goes through the barley field, there’s a lot of small animal carnage left behind.

I wish it wasn’t that way. But I feel that I would be dishonest for ME to ever put Vegan on my label and try to promote my wine over a competitor through that label.

I don’t judge or criticize others for their choices in this area. If not using animal products in the cellar or brewery is enough, then feel free. But for myself, and Goodfellow wines, I can’t do it.

Glad someone who has actually made commercial wines pointed that out. I was going to say that a totally vegan wine would be impossible to find.

Otto_Forsberg · April 5, 2021, 8:46pm

I think you’ve misunderstood something. Labeling a products vegan does not mean that no animals were harmed in the process, because that’s simply impossible in many processes. Vegan products are made without animal-derived substances as veganism opposes the use of animals for any purpose.

Marcus_Goodfellow · April 5, 2021, 9:31pm

So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?

I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.

I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.

David_Bu3ker · April 5, 2021, 9:33pm

So we can sacrifice a gerbil to Bacchus, but as long as we don’t fine with egg whites…

leslie_renaud · April 5, 2021, 9:46pm

Are you ok with adding biocide to your wine? Velcorin is vegan, therefore it’s better than egg whites?

Chris_C_a_r_y · April 5, 2021, 9:57pm

The OP reference Barnivore. Here is their survey question about Vegan wine…

Hi, I’m helping to update a global online directory (over 51,000 entries so far) of vegan-friendly alcohol, > http://www.barnivore.com/> , and I was hoping you could provide some information about [BRAND NAME].

Does [BRAND NAME] contain any animal ingredients (such as milk/lactose/casein, eggs, cochineal, honey, animal-derived enzymes, etc) or are animal products used in the processing/filtration of the product (such as isinglass, gelatin, etc)?

Also, is your product manufactured or bottled anywhere else in the world (by a sub-licensee, for instance) that might use a different processing system, thus making them unsuitable for vegans?

Thanks,
[YOUR NAME]

.

This seems to avoid the vineyard or winery insects (other than cochineal), gophers (marmots and rabbits in my case) questions, as well as whether animals (horses, mules, goats) used in the farming might disqualify a wine as vegan. It also doesn’t specifically list yeast, but includes the catch all “etc”. I have a good friend who is vegan, and she has explained the honey/bee thing but I still don’t understand that one.

I’m all for truth in advertising, but the labelling possibilities are truly endless. The next thing you know someone will want to know whether the grapes were irrigated or not.

Todd_Hamina · April 5, 2021, 10:09pm

Carl Spackler:
Correct me if I’m wrong Sandy, but if I kill all the golfers they’ll lock me up and throw away the key.

Howard_Cooper · April 5, 2021, 11:26pm

The purpose of this thread seems to be that the OP wants all wines to be vegan.

Howard_Cooper · April 5, 2021, 11:32pm

Fining is often used to clarify and/or soften mouthfeel.

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that “red Burgundy doesn’t take to being fined any more”). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of “modern” versus “old fashioned” winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It’s a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.

Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on…

Thread drift is not unheard of on this board. Could this be a case where thread drift would make the thread more interesting?

David_Bu3ker · April 5, 2021, 11:36pm

Actually, based on his subsequent post, it would appear the OP thinks that non-vegan wines will lose market share due to some anonymous wave of veganism. Fat chance.

Scott_Tallman · April 6, 2021, 12:01am

Protein stability in whites is the big thing. But for that you fine with bentonite.

Egg white finning is still reasonably common in Bordeaux but rare in Burgundy (Coche still does it, saying that it improves long-term aging at the expense of near-term expressiveness; whereas Aubert de Villiane has told me that “red Burgundy doesn’t take to being fined any more”). I confess to being quite interested in it as a technique. If nothing else because fining, along with racking, is one of the two big things missed out of most discussions of “modern” versus “old fashioned” winemaking: serious Bordeaux, for example, as recently as the 1960s, would be racked every six months and fined several times before bottling, three years after the vintage. Contemporary élevage orthodoxies are very different.

It’s a pity, seeing the title of the thread, I thought this might have been an interesting discussion of the state-of-the-art, but instead it appears to be a question of whether or not to appease militant vegans.

Funny, I read the OP and thought it could have resulted in a somewhat interesting discussion around these techniques, their usage and proper labeling that could be informative for many wine consumers, both vegan and not, but instead it appears to be mostly flippant responses and off-topic points with the occasional uncalled for dunking on a segment of potential customers. By all means, go on…

Thread drift is not unheard of on this board. Could this be a case where thread drift would make the thread more interesting?

Not to me. Obviously YMMV.

H_Wallace_Jr · April 6, 2021, 12:13am

Some of the best wines I have ever made I hauled the fruit in a U-Haul. Many of our early Evangelho picks and Rosewood picks were hauled in rental box trucks.

JBrochu · April 6, 2021, 12:21am

I thought OP just wanted wineries to let vegans know if their products were vegan friendly or not?

My sister-in-law actually uses the site OP linked and refuses to drink any beers or wines not listed as vegan friendly on that site. Which is unfortunate, because I’ve cracked many a fine bottle that she refused to drink because it wasn’t vegan friendly, even though I believe that the majority of wines are vegan friendly, at least based on how vegans seem to define it. (i.e. - no animal products used for fining.) It’s just hard to find that info for most wines. While breweries seem to offer this info much more freely.

Ben_M_a_n_d_l_e_r · April 6, 2021, 3:07am

I love ribs, but I will never understand the derision and vitriol that vegans are met with when they bring up questions about the use of animal products in winemaking and related labeling. On this board, in person among industry colleagues, and on Facebook groups, it’s all the same. Usually the vegan asking the questions doesn’t have all the right information or asks a slightly misinformed question, or maybe has an inflated idea of how important the issue is to the industry as a whole (presumably because it is in fact very important to them and their community), and then that is taken by industry/wine people as evidence that this vegan is an idiot who shouldn’t be taken seriously.

To the OP, let me tell you that the desire to make wine without animal products does influence the market of winemaking additives and processing aids. In recent years there have been significant developments in the use of vegan fining alternatives such as pea protein, and chitosan (which has many applications and I believe was originally sourced from crustaceans) is now industrially produced from fungi.

Vegan alternatives to animal-based fining agents do not have exactly the same effects (just as different animal-based fining agents themselves have different effects from one another), so it is difficult to envision these animal-based products disappearing any time soon. For vegans who have made that choice for environmental reasons, the issue is more complex because different fining agents have very different sources and so different impacts along their supply chain.

And, as others have stated on this thread, filtration is vegan, so you don’t have to worry about that one.

Otto_Forsberg · April 6, 2021, 6:07am

[quote=“Marcus Goodfellow” post_id=3237474 time=1617658309
So it’s ok to kill them. Just not to use them?
[/quote]

In essence, yes.

I get what you are saying, but for me “use” can not replace “harm” and be something that I promote.

Also, if the crew isn’t vegetarian then animals are being used to make the wines.

I support the choices vegans make, and have the honor not to try and pretend that my product lives up to my interpretation of their choice.

Whatever rocks your boat. However, that sounds like an organic farmer not willing to label their wines organic because their neighbor isn’t farming organically and wind can always blow some synthetic chemicals to their side so their honor prevents them from guaranteeing that their wines were farmed according to organic principles.

A vegan does not turn into not vegan if they inadvertently crush a bug while walking to somewhere.

DougS · April 6, 2021, 12:27pm

You’ve made up your own definition. It’s not the real definition. You can rationalize it all you want, but that doesn’t change the accepted definition. A couple if other people have done the same thing in this thread.