When a Burgundy producer's pricing increases astronomically

[Mark_Golodetz]

I am curious how many of us who used to buy Grands Crus when affordable have now trickled down to low end Premiers and Villages wines.

I used to buy a lot including a couple of bottles of DRC annually. Those days are long gone, I am living on past purchases, and apart from one or two prodicers slightly under the radar, I am sorry to say have really stopped buying Burgundy.

[Jayson_Cohen]

I am curious how many of us who used to buy Grands Crus when affordable have now trickled down to low end Premiers and Villages wines.

I used to buy a lot including a couple of bottles of DRC annually. Those days are long gone, I am living on past purchases, and apart from one or two prodicers slightly under the radar, I am sorry to say have really stopped buying Burgundy.

This all describes me pretty well. Not DRC ever, but others like Roumier, Rousseau, Mugneret-Gibourg. Now I have to see a good price at PC or village, whether retail or auction, to pull the trigger, usually something under the radar or at a clearance price. It never happens anymore at GC level.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Just a single data point but I believe representative.

The retail price I have paid for the Dujac Clos de la Roche has gone up about 35% in the last five years. For the 2015 and 2016 my prices were between US$250 and US$270. Only minuscule amounts of the Dujac GC come into my local market but because the retailers can buy direct from the Domaine, the prices are very good. Of course allocations and bottle quantities are very small.

It is not the domaines who are driving the price increases, it is the secondary market.

Really, it’s the consumers, right? If folks simply didn’t pay the asking prices, then the prices would fall.

[JG_Salazar]

Cécile’s wines can be beautifully aromatic, but above all they stand out for their filigree structure. Not every year or every cuvée—though more and more consistently since 2009—but when they show well, their textural properties make them very singular. In Burgundy, people are prepared to pay for singularity above pretty much anything else. And as several others have observed, quantities are small and carefully allocated.

I might also add that Cécile brings her wines (in barrel) up from the cellar to the cuverie for their spring bottling in an elevator after the harvest. That disturbs the fine lees which can make the wines hard to taste in October-November when most critics are reviewing Burgundy from barrel. Each producer has peculiarities like this and it can be hard to go to taste at the optimal time. For Cécile, I try to taste just after the harvest before she moves the wines.

All of this is true.

Also, the more people at the party, the faster the punch bowl gets drained. When we first started buying these with the '05 vintage, we could pretty much buy whatever quantities we wanted from the importer. It’s a different story now.

[Howard_Cooper]

I am curious how many of us who used to buy Grands Crus when affordable have now trickled down to low end Premiers and Villages wines.

I used to buy a lot including a couple of bottles of DRC annually. Those days are long gone, I am living on past purchases, and apart from one or two prodicers slightly under the radar, I am sorry to say have really stopped buying Burgundy.

Over the last two to three years, I have visited Burgundy twice - summer 2016 and summer 2018. Almost all grand crus I have purchased over the last two to three years have been from Burgundy, not from US sources.

[Robert_Grenley]

“The answer is different in every instance. Ente, for example, is sold via an agent, Vinifera, and the agent controls the pricing. They don’t even sell direct to private clients any more. Tremblay is relatively expensive from the domaine but nowhere near what you are seeing in the USA. Producers such as Claude Dugat, Raveneau and Ramonet are actively cheap. Coche from the Domaine is 51 for Meursault AOC, 57 for Meursault Rougeots, 112 for Perrieres and 205 for Corton-Charlemagne.”

Well, seeing those Coche prices is enlightening…and sickening when I think of what is now being charged through regular distribution channels here in WA, let alone what is being charged by retailers across the internet. Same with Raveneau. Sure, people in the business can charge whatever the market will bear, but screw them and their gouging. There are still producers whose prices for grand crus and premier crus are fairly reasonable, and whose wines are excellent. And if they are not quite at the level of Coche, Raveneau, Dujac, Rousseau, et al, well, they aren’t 1/5 as good…in many cases they are just a step or two below. I am glad that my cellar is stocked with those special producers from back when, but I have tired of playing a game that is stacked against us.

[Peter_Chiu]

Buy wines made by Pierre Damoy…

[Marcu_Stanley]

Just a single data point but I believe representative.

The retail price I have paid for the Dujac Clos de la Roche has gone up about 35% in the last five years. For the 2015 and 2016 my prices were between US$250 and US$270. Only minuscule amounts of the Dujac GC come into my local market but because the retailers can buy direct from the Domaine, the prices are very good. Of course allocations and bottle quantities are very small.

It is not the domaines who are driving the price increases, it is the secondary market.

Really, it’s the consumers, right? If folks simply didn’t pay the asking prices, then the prices would fall.

Maybe, maybe not. It’s worth paying attention to A. Songeur’s points above about investment funds (see for example his post #20). With the wonders of financial markets you can get astronomical prices free of end consumers. People put money into these wine investment funds seeking appreciation, the managers use the funds to buy and push up wine prices so they can report appreciation back to their investors, everyone is happy. It works until there is too much net selling pressure from people looking to cash out.

I’m sure that isn’t the whole story but it sounds like it could be a very interesting piece.

[Mark_Golodetz]

It would be interesting to see what percentage of the high end market is speculators, what percentage is “portfolio diversification” which apparently is not the same thing and what percentage drink the wines. Almost impossible to get numbers on this, but interesting.

[lleichtman]

I heard years ago that eventually Tremblay’s production will go up by a good bit as some parcels owned by her go off lease or whatever. Anyone have any information on this like when it is going to happen or if I am correct.

I am a fan of her wines, but frankly would probably sell my Bourgogne Rouge if I could get $150 for it.

Not sure you will as I bought a 3-pack for $68/bottle plus shipping.

[lleichtman]

A lot of reasons that Tremblay’s wines have shot up, but mostly because they are so damned good. A recent 2008 Chapelle had this incredible core of fruit in the mid palate which exploded in the mouth and left the three of us who tasted it speechless. I would put her wines on the same level as Dujac.

Doesn’t hurt that she is the great granddaughter of Henri Jayer.

Wow, absolute unicorn now. Unbuyable on most markets. Only have ever bought the Bourgone Rouge.

[Howard_Cooper]

I heard years ago that eventually Tremblay’s production will go up by a good bit as some parcels owned by her go off lease or whatever. Anyone have any information on this like when it is going to happen or if I am correct.

I am a fan of her wines, but frankly would probably sell my Bourgogne Rouge if I could get $150 for it.

Not sure you will as I bought a 3-pack for $68/bottle plus shipping.

Not that surprising. That price sounded really high.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Well having talked about not buying Grand Cru Burgundy, within 24 hours, I bought some 2015 Rossignol Trapet Chambertin. Good wine, and relatively cheap, but I am far too easily tempted.

[Karl_K]

It’s okay, Mark, we still love and appreciate you.

Even if none of us here have ever done anything at all like that in the past. Ever.

[Mark_Golodetz]

Thanks Karl.

“You must not do it any more,
A scheme is not a vision
And you never have been tempted
By a demon or a god.”

Leonard Cohen Story of Isaac

[Howard_Cooper]

Well having talked about not buying Grand Cru Burgundy, within 24 hours, I bought some 2015 Rossignol Trapet Chambertin. Good wine, and relatively cheap, but I am far too easily tempted.

Rossignol-Trapet is, to me, one of the best values around today in grand cru Burgundy, esp. at the winery.

[Mark_Golodetz]

You are right; high quality and getting better. Around $250 for the 2015 Chambertin.

[Jurgen_Steinke]

The value today is in Marsannay, Givry etc. Some very good wines to acceptable prices. IMO. And btw. German Pinot gets better and better. But perhaps I should keep that truth for myself.

[Robert_Grenley]

How reasonable many Burgundies are at the winery, even including Coche, Raveneau, etc., and how unreasonable they are in the U.S., is simply depressing. I will not be traveling to Burgundy to buy wine, so whatever.

[EricE]

How reasonable many Burgundies are at the winery, even including Coche, Raveneau, etc., and how unreasonable they are in the U.S., is simply depressing. I will not be traveling to Burgundy to buy wine, so whatever.

Even if you could I doubt you could just stop by the domaine and pick up a case. Although it would be cool if you could!