Larry,
I don’t know.
Mainly because I don’t know if the cause and effect relationship you speak of is the only reason a wine could appear hard or backward.
But I am probably not the most objective voice; I think that wine, generally speaking, is more palatable and matches better with food when it is lower in alcohol. Particularly, the food I eat.
I find higher alcohols to be pretty insidious; making changes in texture and clarity that are, for me, hard to attribute to anything else but equally hard to quantify.
One thing I will say with certainty; there is room at the table for every type of wine at every alcohol level - I choose lower because I find the wines more precise and food friendly - and about the only time I drink wine is when I’m eating.
One last comment if I may; a lot of folks have responded that they don’t bother with abv if they feel a wine is balanced. While I think that us literally true, I find that balance in higher alcohol wines has a different aromatic and palate profile than balance in lower abv wines. In other words, there’s two (or more) kinds of balance in play.
I prefer wines that are lower in alcohol than is normal these days, with fresh acidity and fresh flavors (ie not cooked or jammy). I am delighted that some producers in CA are starting to return to that style.
That said, there are some classic regions that are having a hard time keeping the alcohol below 14%, Barolo being a case in point, also some of the top wines from the Alto Adige. Global warming is a reality.
De-alcoholised wine is an important part of the picture these days, at least in CA. Not all the way, of course, just from 16++ to 14+, so the flavors are those of an extreme level of ripeness even if the actual alcohol number is not too extreme. (Of course, you have to add 1.0 to the alcohol on the label for the truth anyway, in many cases.) Water addition then de-alc is the recipe for higher points from certain critics, or so I’m told…
Larry makes an interesting point, though.
I think we typically respond to the types of wines he’s talking of–thin, meager wines–by calling them under-ripe, over-cropped, stripped, etc. when a judicious chaptalization might have made the wine far more palatable.
I find higher alcohols to be pretty insidious; making changes in texture and clarity that are, for me, hard to attribute to anything else but equally hard to quantify.
One thing I will say with certainty; there is room at the table for every type of wine at every alcohol level - I choose lower because I find the wines more precise and food friendly - and about the only time I drink wine is when I’m eating.
Which suggests to me that you may be more sensitive to alcohol than others.
I’m in the same boat, finding a whole host of “deformations” that often occur in high alcohol wines.
I’m beginning to think that the population may have some bi-modal genetic pattern with regard to alcohol tolerances and thresholds.
Bruce,
I believe that I am sensitive to alcohol.
But I also believe that the term ‘balanced’ has different meanings in different contexts when describing wines and their alcohol content. Unfortunately, I’m not very good at explaining that concept so I will just say, high alcohol wines taste different to me, whether they are well made or not (which probably proves your original point).
As for chaptalization; its illegal in CA so meager wines here, are always under-ripe.
Best, Jim
A winemaker’s questionable decision to release a zin with noticeable residual sugar doesn’t really have anything to do with the issue whether a dry red wine would be better at 11%, 12%, 13%, 14%, 15%, or beyond.
I’m not on board with the “balance” chestnut, either. You can balance excessive alcohol with excessive other things, but the result is excessive across the board. It’s “balanced” but it’s still bad wine.
If I don’t notice the alcohol, then I don’t care. A balanced properly made wine with higher than average alcohol is just fine in my view. Then again, I have had poorly made messes that were lower in alcohol to other wines that I have liked quite a bit. Opened (err, Coravined) a 2001 Turley Hayne the other night - first Turley I have had in quite a while and if I looked probably around 16%, but drank very nicely and in a more restrained/mature manner than it once did and I didn’t notice in the least.
Open Statement to the the WB community: If I ever start talking like this just take me out back and shoot me.
I missed the part of this thread that said it had to be dry wine. I enjoy wine of all type of alcohol levels and my cellar runs from 12.3 to probably 16. No chestnuts either.
The fact that you think any dry red wine with 14% ABV is bad wine is breaking my heart. Uh, no.
Post #3 postby Brian G r a f s t r o m »
I just don’t want to notice the alc.; as long as I don’t notice it, and I like the wine, I don’t care what the abv is.
and "
Sheesh! Why does it seem so difficult for lots of people to understand this? I once got into a heated discussion with a Frenchman who refused to drink any wine with more than 13% ABV… just on principle, I guess. We went through 300+ facings in my shop and found exactly 3 that fit that maximum. I but my tongue through all the "I told you so"s.
Why does it seem to you that lots of people can’t understand this?
I don’t know many people at all, even people in the low-alc crowd, who would argue with these kinds of self-evident “If I like a wine then it’s a wine that I like” statements…
The GF opened a bottle of Zin last night that was atrociously sweet and had an undetectable ABV of 13.2%. That wine needed more alc, less RS and any acid at all. I countered with a Scherrer Zin that was 14.3 and balanced. Made all the difference in the world.
Hopefully that was an eye opener for your grandfather.
Balance for me is key. I’ve had a few 15%ABV reds that wore it well, but a very few. That being said, it always raises eyebrows and concern if I see it on a label.
I enjoy first. Never do I need to read the label unless my palate tells me to check and never do I read the label before popping a cork. Just never been an issue with me. Balance is key regardless of the numbers.
This “balance” thing is all fine and good. But how do you know whether a high alcohol wine will be “balanced” for you if you’ve never had it before?
First of all, I think people respond very differently to alcohol (just as people respond differently to “green” notes). And secondly, it’s also about getting used to it. Whoever regularly drinks mostly red wines and mostly those that tend to have higher alcohol (e.g. Southern Rhône Grenache based blends) will probably be much less sensitive to high alcohol than those who regularly drink Mondeuse, Dolcetto or Trollinger. I’ve had people who drink nothing but Grenache blends recommend wines to me, saying “high alcohol, but perfectly balanced” and we found out that we respond to the alcohol in a very different way.
Back to the first sentence. I, for myself, have stopped buying certain wines that have high ABV levels, simply because the risk that I find it hot and not balanced rises exponentially with each 0.5% Vol. additional alcohol. I don’t mind 14.5% Vol. wines from Priorat as I find that they are usually still quite balanced. But when it goes beyond 14.5% Vol., the number of wines that I find hot gets bigger. That’s why - save for some exceptions - I don’t buy Prioratos with more than 14.5% Vol. anymore. I may lose out on some really good and balanced wines, but that’s the price I’m paying.
Steven, not quite I understand your question. If you try it and find it unbalanced, so be it. Are you saying you need a guarantee it’s not “hot” ? (your word)
Your way would just limit one in drinking great balanced wines. No matter whether the label says 11.3% or 15.5%, a balanced wine is just that. BTW, most of what I drink is closer to the latter.
Mike, certainly I’m not looking for a guarantee as I know there can’t be one. I’m just looking for a certain likelihood that a wine will taste balanced to me, and the ABV level is an indicator to me for that likelihood (if not one that’s always accurate).
My question was more aimed towards the situation that arises if I can’t taste the wine before I buy it. Let’s say I receive the latest newsletter from an online wine merchant I trust and it advertises a certain wine that is from a producer I like or from a region I like or is just described in an appealing way. If I see 13.0% Vol. alcohol in the wine’s description, I don’t have to think much about whether I’ll find it balanced in alcohol or not. It may taste unbalanced to me with the alcohol stinging out, but - based on past experience - it’s not very likely at that ABV level (I may find the wine unbalanced for other reasons though). If I see 15.0% Vol. in the wine’s description, I have to think twice whether I want to try the wine or not, especially if it’s high in price. That’s simply because I’ve had more wines that I found unbalanced with that ABV level than wines with lower ABV levels that I found unbalanced. As you say, this limits me and I know I’m missing out on some potentially great stuff. But I prefer missing out on potentially great stuff than having too much wine that I (personally) can’t drink, but only use for cooking. But that’s probably a personal thing, since - for me - exposed alcohol in a wine is one of the only “flaws” that makes a wine undrinkable to me (for example, I can just barely live with rustic tannins or harsh acidity or barnyard notes even if I usually don’t like them either).
The frustrating thing about writing about ABV of wine is that it is next to impossible to know what the ABV of a given wine actually is. As the regulations currently stand, the 13.2% wine’s actually ABV could be anywhere between 11.7% and 14%. The 14.3% could be as low as 14% or as high as 15.3%. These are pretty significant differences.
I am sure that much of the wine we taste is more accurately measured than the regulations but their lack of stringency makes it slightly difficult to talk about the impact of ABV levels in any meaningful way without measuring a given wine’s ABV yourself.
Mike – You clearly are not put off by high alcohol wines as much as some people. I understood what Steven meant completely. When I see 15% I’m very unlikely to buy a wine because the odds are I’ll find it burns in the back of the mouth. Certainly I’ve had 15% wines where the alcohol didn’t stand out, but precious few. (And I think it’s rare for a label to understate the alcohol.)
I don’t have a hard and fast threshold (particularly given the margin of error in the labeling), and it varies with the type of wine. I wouldn’t be nervous about a 14.5% zin or Ribeira del Duero or Brunello or Chateauneuf, but I’d probably pass if it were a pinot. Show me a 14.8% Napa cab and I’ll show you a wine I don’t need to buy.
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