Poured another 2004 Hubert Lamy St. Aubin single vineyard 1er down the drain (4 of 8 off so far), which sparked me to wonder “who is doing what to fix this epidemic?”
Which producers are doing what?
How is it working in your experience (producer by producer if possible)?
Would more magnum bottlings help reduce the risk?
What do you think they should do?
Hi Drew,
I’m sure you know this:
http://oxidised-burgs.wikispaces.com/
A lot of info on your questions there. I don’t know of a better source of information.
Less battonage (lees stirring) after primary ferment and ml ferment. Dropping a couple of small peices of dry ice into the barrel when stirring the lees. Putting a small wand in the barrel bung to blanket with inert gas when stirring lees. And in general less lees stirring. There were winemakers forecasting premox of white wines ten years before it was apparent due to the growing trend of “excessive” lees stirring.
Is it because you get air in the barrel while you stir? Can you stir the lees by just shaking or rolling the barrel without opening the barrel bung and avoid introducing anything while you do it?
I remember when Parker gave big scores to the 1992 Verget wines. Isn’t one reason the Verget wines tasted so good young lees stirring? Always seemed interesting to me that within a few years after these scores, a lot of copying of Verget methods and premox.
Do you think there is any relationship?
Coche-Dury has a great track record of producing long lived whites and relatively few pre-moxed ones. Their process includes lees stirring twice per month for the first year in barrel so I don’t think you can point to “excessive lees stirring” as the cause.
Define “too much,” “too little,” “sexual relations.”
When I started working with incarcerated yeast in the late 90s, some French winemakers were warning about the risk of premox (actually mocking certain winemakers,) who were stirring their yeast lees multiple times a week.
Which led me to only stir during primary ferment and vigorously active malolactic ferment.
In the late 90s, there were French winemakers forecasting the premox of white wines due to “innapropriate” “excessive” lees stirring.
Thanks, Henry. Yes, great site, especially for actual reporting of good and bad bottles. I was more interested in who is doing what. Who has stopped stirring their lees as much as previously, for example. ![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Peter,
Who were some of those winemakers, and how have their own wines (1995 and thereafter) fared with respect to premature oxidation?
agreed
when I have had dinner with a great montrachet with the maker beside me and we get a premox he shrugs his shoulders
and says nothing
They sell as much as they can, to suppliers who charge as much as they can, to buyers who might complain but still pay the prices being asked.
RT
The questions on this thread are the good, obvious ones. Unfortunately, none of us here can answer them. Very frustrating, but they are posed each time “the prem-ox” comes up…with only questions and no answers.
I do know that many (most??) producers who use corks have reverted to the more malleable parrafin-coated corks from the rigid silicone -coated corks to have the potential for a better seal at the bottle neck. I’ve been told this…and have observed it myself…as I open bottles. The parrafin are noticeably softer…and every bottle of Dauvissat I’ve opened post-1999 vintage seems of the softer cork variety. Whether this helps “solve” the problem…who knows. It can’t hurt, and producers went back to these in many cases.
That’s about the only answer i can provide to the query on this thread.
One of my theories relates to the fashion (until recently) towards a reductive juice handling with Chardonnay (inert gas, SO2 at the press, whole bunch pressing) has at least been a factor in premox. Case in point: I have never seen a premoxed Coche while I have seen more Leflaives and Sauzets than I dare count. Guess which employ reductive vs oxidative juice handling.
I believe there are certain polyphenols in Chardonnay that ARE going to oxidize no matter what you do, that will occur at juice stage, in barrel or bottle, there is very little you can do. Luckily at the juice stage, these polyphenols are insoluble when oxidised so will be left behind in tank at debourbage before transfer to barrel for fermentation. Fermentation is a reductive process and yeast are desperate to hand over electrons so any flavour/colour compounds will be returned to their original state. I find Chardonnay that is juice oxidized is brighter after fermentation than that which was protected.
I personally foot crush the bunches, press hard (2+ bar) with very minimal turning if using a bladder press (no more than 3 turns) and for at least 2-3 hours e.g my grower wants to press it. Preferably I prefer pressing with my old vertical basket press over 6 hours, no SO2 at the press. Minimal turning, hard press in a bladder or vertical pressing gives me much finer bourbe which I am more comfortable in oxidising for a minimum of 48 hours, this finer bourbe means I don’t need to rack and need a lot less settling time in tank pre-bottling and thus far no fining.
Other winemakers I have spoken with are moving back to vertical pressing (Benjamin Leroux) and other experimenting with pushing the envelope on must oxidation (Roulot). The other issue is closures and my gut is a lot more Burgundian wineries will be move to DIAM and/or screwcap exclusively in the near future. Benjamin Leroux told me if the market would accept it he would put all of his whites under screwcap, even his Batard.
Long way of saying it, but the consensus amongst my fellow Burgundian winemakers is that it is a complex issue with many factors, but it seems the thinking is towards more oxidative must handling and non-cork closures as the two main strategies.
Anecdotally I’ve noticed a lot more sulphur in some young white burgundies in recent years.
I don’t think Burgundy producers are ostriches with their heads in the sand over premox. How do you solve a problem now when you will only really know you have solved it in 10 years? I’m sure they’re trying …
When we were in Burgundy recently we asked winemakers about premox. Winemakers gave several possible solutions related to battonage, SO2, corks etc. One maker, who shall remain nameless said “No one knows what causes premox. If they tell you they have solved it, they’re lying”.
If my hunch is right, the real solution would probably be going back to producing the sharper, higher acid, less ripe, lighter colored White Burgs of 20 years ago, and I doubt any of them want to do that.
I’m not saying there might not be some tweaks to the stirring, corks or something else (most especially switching to screwcaps) that would help, but my guess has always been that today’s White Burgs, full of ripe tropical fruit and delicious right upon release, just aren’t made in a long-aging style.
I don’t know if Burg producers secretly agree with my hunch, but even if they did, I would expect them to talk about sulfur and corks and all instead.
I’m no expert, though – that’s just what has always seemed like the obvious answer to me.
Great thoughts Andrew.
Are you sure Coche uses oxidative juice handling? Remington Norman’s book ‘The Great Domaines of Burgundy’ (the reprinted in 1998 edition) quotes Jean-Francoise Coche as doing reductive juice handling…esp sulfuring the grapes/juice to avoid any possibility of oxidation.
I think they are mostly using abstinence and the Rhythm Method.
How do bladder presses and basket presses differ in their function and how is that thought to relate to premox? Something about the amount of anti-oxidants that end up in the juice?