Yes and I believe you’ve also noted at times that you thought either 2008 Cristal or 2008 Dom Perignon was shut down or in a dumb phase. I’ve no doubt of the veracity of your personal anecdote, and yet while folks claim 2008 Dom Perignon has been “shut down” I’ve had it literally every year since release and have never once had that experience. My personal experiences with Salon are likely more limited than yours, but I’ve had a decent bit of it and have never had any release at any time give me nothing. I’ve had corked champagne that give little pleasure and was overtly muted but for a tca note. I’ve had flat, oxidized champagne. But I’ve never had a champagne taste like sparkling water. And to that point, given the glories that typically be Salon, how could you possibly assume that was a good bottle indicative of a greater “dumb phase” applicable to 2002 Salon at nearly 20 years old instead of a major outlier that was, somehow, flawed. I mean, I appreciate your confidence, but like, come on man.
It opened up and was good by the end of the night.
I think 08 Cristal wasn’t showing much for awhile, but has just started drinking reasonably well now.
I may need @ToddFrench to vouch for me here, because when I ask this next question it’s out of pure curiosity and inquisitiveness, not a challenge to the accuracy of what you’re saying…I want to learn.
Do you have anything to substantiate that argument re where we taste things on the palate and the like? And maybe we are meaning different things, but I understood there was a meaningful debunking of some of the taste receptor location or portion of palate receptive to X Y or Z flavors. See https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/neat-and-tidy-map-tastes-tongue-you-learned-school-all-wrong-180963407/.
That said, I readily acknowledge from cooking that we can use things to mask the existence of other things. For instance, if something is too salty, squeezing lemon juice will mute the perception of salt, and the effect is far greater than the actual dilution by volume. Similarly, we can mute perceived acidity in marinara with a pinch of sugar, though sugar is PH neutral and does not chemically reduce acidity.
I am also familiar with the effects of tannins breaking down over time from long to short chain tannins on perception of tannins in blind tests. I am curious to learn re tannin chains binding, and then releasing fruit phenols in a manner that would allow an aged wine, whose fruit profile appeared less intense, to return to a more vibrant youthful profile (something I’ve not really experienced). Also is there a way to predict that timing? Advanced spectronomy? Some fancy tech Bezos and his cronies could use to ensure they’re hitting the sweet spot on the Chambertin and RCs?
White Jura is better than white Burgundy.
So was it in a dumb phase or did it just need some air and then was good?
Not to mention it’s disgusting. Can’t go to tastings anymore for this reason, especially since the younger folks all seem to spit. If you have to drive, that’s one thing, but otherwise…maybe find a new hobby.
Or perhaps I’m just becoming a curmudgeon. 
Well here’s some fresh bait for everyone:
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If a fancy (like Michelin *) restaurant does not offer a well-considered pairing, the sommelier has failed. A pairing menu, when done well, will always make for a better experience than whole bottles, if for no other reason than for relieving one the cognitive load of choosing and mentally engaging with the markup. Jesus take the wheel.
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Spitting might be “tasting,” but it isn’t experiencing, and I drink wine to experience it. Do restaurant critics spit out their first courses to save room for their mains?
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Cannabis + wine is a match made in heaven. People saying “wEeD iS KiLlinG wInE” have probably never meaningfully experienced weed and are basically old men yelling at (fat puffy vape) clouds.
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I love Champagne, but Prosecco or Cava is usually the right answer for non-geeks, and sometimes for geeks.
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The two great chardonnay regions in America are the Willamette Valley and the Finger Lakes.
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There is no such thing as a refreshing wine. If I want refreshment, I’m drinking a Modello. Or, you know, water.
I think this is incorrect.
Tannin perception (well, tannic astringency at least) is dependent on pH. If you add acid so that the pH of the wine goes down, the tannic perception increases as tannin are more astringent in lower pH.
In other words, a low-pH high-acid wine needs less tannins to appear as grippy as a high-pH low-acid wine.
Many other things might compete against each other when tasting wine, but surprisingly enough, acidity and tannins do not. They are perceived quite distinctly from each other and one also affects how the other is perceived.
Alcohol is a lot more toxic than fat and salt.
It was open for several hours before we had it and then needed 3+ more hours before it started to show anything. I would just consider it shut down.
Most pairings although they might be good, are also intended to make money. I feel like you’ll always do better bringing your own wine and sometimes buying off the list.
What, with all of this talk about the biggest of the biggest… Are “Trophy Wines” trophies when they are young/unresolved?
Cris said something more than that people generally like oaked wines. He said that everybody liked oak on there wines and those who said they don’t were virtue signaling (I sometimes pedantically wish some people would read some evolutionary biology and learn what that term originally meant). There sure are a lot of virtue signalers who have since answered your question. My answer to your question would largely repeat Otto’s. And like Otto, I would specify that what I object to is new oak. What he refers to as neutral oak doesn’t much bother me. But on the rare occasions when I have been able to taste the same basic cuvée, some of which had been kept in barrels, some of which had been kept in inox, I have preferred the inox as fresher. Even the greater oxidation occurring with “neutral” oak has an effect.
Probably the most actually controversial post in this thread.
I am interested in your reference I am unfamiliar with the topic but just had one of these recently. Please advise, thanks.
Yeah but nobody hates salt.
Been dipping my toe in the water, but so far my experience has been much more variable than White Burg. Using the 3 bottles of Ganevat I’ve had over the last few month, 1 was incredible (2014 Savagnin En Billat) 1 was good but a little high in VA for my taste (2019 Chardonnay, Les Chamois du Paradis, and one was so loaded with VA - it smelled and taste outright like Kombucha or a run of the mill natural wine (2019 Chardonnay, Les Varrons).
Yes, as long as the label is recognizable.
I like high alcohol wines