Not by me. Wine by itself can taste OK but it seems to me a misuse, there are far better drinks for that purpose. Most importantly, wine deserves respect, ceremony and a little effort and devising a proper place for it on the table is very much part of that. So much great wine is simply wasted.
That is simply not true at all. Some wines, and they may be very great ones, can for a long period of their evolution taste and smell of absolutely nothing. It is quite rare but it unquestionably happens.
2 Likes
Haven’t had any 23s yet as mine don’t arrive until fall! I’ve really enjoyed 17, 19, 21, and 22 though, and I have high hopes for 22 reds in general.
The board regularly discusses how it’s best to drink one wine after another, a specific food with a wine, another food not with it, how corked wine can spoil your night and so on. If all of these things are affecting your perception of wine, how does tasting 19 bottles not affect how you perceive 21? Much less the first 5 bottles affecting the 6th. Whether it’s flavor profile, structure, etc…
To get the very most from a bottle of wine it should be drunk without other people and without other wines, but certainly at the dining table.
In company, which is usually more fun, really good wine is unnecessary and is usually not properly appreciated.
Yes, I understood the prompt to be “your unpopular wine truths.” While you say it unquestionably happens and my statement “simply not true at all,” I don’t agree, and I think you’re wrong. I’ve never had any wine at any point smell and taste of absolutely nothing. The struggle I have with the dumb phase theory is that it typically succeeds a very telling initial early phase, i.e. folks taste the wine, marvel at its potential, buy a case. Then 5 years late go open and taste the wine and say, oh, that’s in a dumb phase, maybe another 5-10 years, I’m getting nothing. First, I’ve not experienced that “getting nothing phase.” Like, ever. Second, we all acknowledge the effects of aging and that gradual micro-oxidation of wine over time results in the development of secondary and then tertiary flavors and aromas. I suspect that most of this “dumb phase” complaint is just dissatisfaction in the transition from primary (lots of bright and exciting fruity) to secondary (hey, how come all of that fruit is not as bright and present) without the complexity or interest of tertiary (not as bright fruit, but also not the sous bois and autumn forest aromas and mushroom and other fun stuff I’d hoped at maturity). And so because it doesn’t meet some specific expectation, it’s “shut down” or “in a dumb phase.”
Marcus notes that tannin structure and tannin structure transitions are likely at play, and there is probably some truth to that: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S030881462102896X
But that hypothesis doesn’t explain why almost no one is calling a “dumb phase” right after release when tannin structure should be most severe.
1 Like
My strange oak impact story is a single bottle of 2010 LdH Cubillo that showed an extreme dill streak while no other bottle out of 12 or 14 showed any noticeable oak. This is despite large old casks and reportedly only replacing boards as needed.
1 Like
I’ll echo Otto’s points, but also add that certain types / toasts / size of oak barrels can definitely change the texture of certain wines, often in ways that are not wanted. For Nebbiolo, barrique in particular, but presumably new oak in general to greater or lesser extent, just makes the wine feel very soft, stripping away much of the acid and tannin edge. I hate it. Obviously not an issue with large, old oak vessels.
3 Likes
Great thread idea by my new friend @I.S_a_n_c_h_e_z !! (and my wife’s new Berserker bestie, after the Decanter weekend)
Can’t believe this has never been asked before, and it rightfully is getting insane attention
‘extremely high like to post ratio’!
3 Likes
I haven’t found my perception of wine (at least the flavor elements I’ve been looking for) changes all that much. A couple epiphany bottles for me were tasted at the end of super long wine evenings. When I’ve revisited the bottles on later occasions they’ve been very consistent.
This is my favorite Andrew take of all time 
.
Not because I’m entirely in agreement, but I’ve heard him workshop it over the last few years and (pleasurably for me) as I’ve had some stunning white Burgundies these last few years, often with Andrew, the logic of it hits me differently.
Note: the trudging aspect of having to endure a lot of non-beautiful bottles is something I’ve always observed 
. It’s good to actually have the Mountain Ascents to go along with the climb, finally…
I’ve definitely had a wine smell like nothing. We had 02 salon in 2021 and it had literally nothing on the nose. My wife and I were both like is this sparkling water? Or did we suddenly get Covid? It took hours for it to show anything.
3 Likes
Oak to wine is like salt to food.
3 Likes
Personally, I find dumb/closed mostly with nebbiolo and pinot, sometimes sangiovese. With nebbiolo I find it almost a guarantee and with pinot and sangiovese somewhat more sporadically. I’ve observed it in other varieties but much more rarely, and often more in the milder vein of “temporarily quieted.” I don’t know if I consider these wines to truly show “nothing” even when totally closed down, but I’d describe it as a temporary phase where the wine displays ample structure from acid and tannin but very little perceptible fruit or non-fruit scents or flavors. Occasionally, enough air will bring it around somewhat, but often not. Or perhaps just not before the deleterious effects of air outweigh any marginal improvement.
The key difference between my experience and what you describe is that you explain this as dissatisfaction with the transition away from more vibrant fruit, but I’m talking about situations where, given a few more years, there will once again be more vibrant fruit on display. At the end of the day, like many things in wine, it doesn’t really matter to me if this phenomenon is universally acknowledged. Because my results with this phenomenon are consistent, I’m able to stage my drinking accordingly.
2 Likes
Love this, dont think it should fall under unpopular
I and a number of friends had similar experiences with a La Rioja Alta Vina Ardanza (I’ve forgotten the vintage). Same story – intense dill/American oak sometimes, and other times in check. Several of us experienced this with 4 or 5 bottles shared over a year or two.
1 Like
I wonder if they need a winemaking consultant for that project…
@Andrew_K - fixed it for you 
1 Like
It doesn’t work so logically. You haven’t experienced it but I have, probably with only a dozen wines, and it’s so many because I used to drink a lot of red Burgundy. It is true, not an excuse, even if it is fairly rare in its extreme form.
Tannin structure may be at it’s highest level in a young wine but so is the fruit. We don’t taste different inputs in a wine individually, i.e. acid and tannins both occupy the same place in tasting. If you have a wine that is low acid and high tannin, adding acid will often have the effect of lowering perception of tannins.
Similarly, the exuberant fruit of a young wine often pushes further into the palate and often makes a wine with significant tannin still apear to be balanced. Those fruit molecules can then be bound up in the tannin chains, which basically hides them from perception until they are released from the tannin chain as it continues to evolve, leaving behind molecules that are basically as fresh as they were in the youthful phase (though less of them) and not tertiary in flavor at all.
I can open 10-15 year old wines for you when you visit that do not lack for freshness. And while there is some development of secondary flavors, they are often described as primary maturity. The majority of them had a phase where they were considerably more pale in color and lacking in fruit.
2018 is just coming out of the dumb phase from the looks of things, 2019 is still in it but showing signs of waking up. Unfortunately, the vintage that should be the best example would be 2020 and the fires wiped that option out. 2021s are tannic beasts anyway so 2022 will be the next best example, but I wouldn’t say they are closed yet. The Heritage No. 21 is working on it though.
8 Likes