MChang
September 11, 2021, 6:34pm
201
This study is likely not all that valid for this population; I imagine it’s mostly cheap restaurants if the average bottles on the list is 13.
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
OwenB
September 11, 2021, 8:47pm
203
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
No question a great somm really adds to the experience, but I’d be pretty unhappy if I paid $400 for a $50 bottle of wine.
I’m willing to pay a huge premium to the ingredient costs for a great chef to prepare a phenomenal meal. I have no interest in paying a huge premium for a bottle of wine because someone helped me pick it out. I can come here or go to my favorite wine shop for free advice on picking a great bottle of wine.
But, like most things here, this is a matter of individual preference.
1 Like
DougS
September 11, 2021, 8:57pm
204
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
I just checked out the list at Manresa. Wow, that’s a great wine list. I’d be totally comfortable with the pricing on bottles I would actually order. They’re mostly 2x retail or less. Some of the hard-to-get wines are actually priced below market value, and some of the very expensive (but not hard to get) wines are more like 1.5x retail. I like lists like that because they encourage me to spend more than I usually do and drink great wine.
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
Molly, your perspective is 100% valid, and if you feel as though you got value, then you did get value.
My experiences have mostly been less positive. Having been drinking wine for ~45 years, it is less likely (though not impossible by any means) for a somm to actually lead me to a kind of wine with which I am unfamiliar (far more likely (s)he’d lead me to an unknown label). And with all due respect to all of the hardworking somms of the world, my friends on this board know as much or more than the somms working in 99.99% of restaurants in this country; if I feel the need to broaden my horizons, I can do so here for free.
Finally, in the exceptionally unlikely (let’s just call it effectively impossible) event someone was able to convince me to spend $400 on a bottle in a restaurant, if I later found out that it sells for $50 at retail, no matter how much I loved the wine, gratitude is about the last emotion I’d feel.
2 Likes
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
Molly, your perspective is 100% valid, and if you feel as though you got value, then you did get value.
My experiences have mostly been less positive. Having been drinking wine for ~45 years, it is less likely (though not impossible by any means) for a somm to actually lead me to a kind of wine with which I am unfamiliar (far more likely (s)he’d lead me to an unknown label). And with all due respect to all of the hardworking somms of the world, my friends on this board know as much or more than the somms working in 99.99% of restaurants in this country; if I feel the need to broaden my horizons, I can do so here for free.
Finally, in the exceptionally unlikely (let’s just call it effectively impossible) event someone was able to convince me to spend $400 on a bottle in a restaurant, if I later found out that it sells for $50 at retail, no matter how much I loved the wine, gratitude is about the last emotion I’d feel.
I’m probably closer in thinking to Neal on this, though I’ve had somms introduce me to wines I may never have discovered any number of times, so I always appreciate them, particularly in restaurants with smaller, more eclectic lists.
But I applaud Molly for her positive attitude. I hope, as she gains more experience, she won’t become as jaded and curmudgeonly as many of us here (though if you do, please join us in the “curmudgeon” thread)
1 Like
MChang
September 11, 2021, 9:24pm
207
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
I think Manresa has a fantastically priced wine list with some very nice offerings.
A lot of people on here are reasonably set in their ways in terms of what they like to drink, and in many cases have more experience with that subset of wines than most somms do. I like to see what type of pairings somms would potentially do with a particular menu (as in read about it, not buy the pairing) because it’s interesting, but essentially 100% of the time I get a tasting menu I’m going to bring/open grand marque champagne and top grand cru (rarely premier cru) red burgundy with some age.
I think Molly was likely engaging in a bit of hyperbole in reference to the 8x markup.
Didn’t recognize that because I personally have never exaggerated in my life. Even once
3 Likes
The English study definitely doesn’t disprove or prove the thesis, but it is interesting to see how far academics will go to get more involved with wine.
I keep wondering if the theory about the second cheapest wine
Because people simply will not pay for it. The cost of food has risen so fast, it is almost impossible to increase the plate price in real time. Add a global pandemic into the mix, and some prices (especially proteins) are now 3 to 4 times what they were in 2019. Food in restaurants is very underpriced. And not to state the obvious- if you haven’t owned, managed, or done bookkeeping for a restaurant, you honestly have no clue how pricing works.
2 Likes
They claim to be the oldest steakhouse in Florida, great selection and very reasonable pricing on a lot of the wines. For just one example, both the 2014 & 2015 Shafer Hillside Select are priced at $330.https://okeesteakhouse.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/WineList813.pdf[/u]
Abhi_M
September 12, 2021, 6:40pm
213
Nice pricing, actually. Some wines barely above retail. 2017 Chave at 310.
Ha you are correct - I’ve never experienced realizing I could buy something I loved for 8x cheaper, but I maintain I’d be thrilled
This topic resurfaces often (not a criticism of the OP), and my answer is always the same: everybody’s right.
Restaurants have a right to organize their business as they choose, and having never run a restaurant, I am reluctant to say they are wrong (although, my gut tells me that they’ll put more wine on more tables at a 2X markup than a 3 or 4X markup, and the outcome will be better for everyone).
It is hard to accept paying 4X for a bottle; those with some idea of the retail market for a wine will get hives paying what a less informed consumer would. I never would pay those prices.
You don’t have to go to the restaurant or agree with its pricing strategies. If you go, you pay what they are asking. If you can’t do that, just pick another spot. In DC, I rarely go to the Trabocchi restaurants because they don’t allow corkage on weekends and have a big ticket on corkage during the week, their wine prices are very high, and I am not going to pay that kind of money for high end food and drink water.
Two things other things stated so far are worth comment (a) the Inn’s wine list is pretty broad, and decent values abound. And the somms there will help you find something good at a fair price without making you feel cheap; and (b) those who compare wine prices to the basic ingredient prices for food are being silly. The entire point of the restaurant is the value added by the skill in the kitchen. There is no comparable value add by the wine service. They provide a glass, a decanter, and the use of a corkscrew. Not the same thing.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
I think Manresa has a fantastically priced wine list with some very nice offerings.
A lot of people on here are reasonably set in their ways in terms of what they like to drink, and in many cases have more experience with that subset of wines than most somms do. I like to see what type of pairings somms would potentially do with a particular menu (as in read about it, not buy the pairing) because it’s interesting, but essentially 100% of the time I get a tasting menu I’m going to bring/open grand marque champagne and top grand cru (rarely premier cru) red burgundy with some age.
I don’t do the pairings - it’s always too much alcohol for me. We also always do champagne and then a recommended red. I love grenache for a tasting menu - firmly believe it goes with everything. And that’s all fair, if you know what you like, it totally makes sense to go be more price sensitive on particular bottles - you don’t want or need to pay for the expert advice.
Almost hate to give up my secret but anyone who wants to see what I think is a fabulous wine list for generally less markup than you’d expect (at least for the bottles I’m familiar with) should check out localis in Sacramento. Had the 2008 chateau rayas grenache for $600 there a couple weeks ago.
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
Molly, your perspective is 100% valid, and if you feel as though you got value, then you did get value.
My experiences have mostly been less positive. Having been drinking wine for ~45 years, it is less likely (though not impossible by any means) for a somm to actually lead me to a kind of wine with which I am unfamiliar (far more likely (s)he’d lead me to an unknown label). And with all due respect to all of the hardworking somms of the world, my friends on this board know as much or more than the somms working in 99.99% of restaurants in this country; if I feel the need to broaden my horizons, I can do so here for free.
Finally, in the exceptionally unlikely (let’s just call it effectively impossible) event someone was able to convince me to spend $400 on a bottle in a restaurant, if I later found out that it sells for $50 at retail, no matter how much I loved the wine, gratitude is about the last emotion I’d feel.
I’m probably closer in thinking to Neal on this, though I’ve had somms introduce me to wines I may never have discovered any number of times, so I always appreciate them, particularly in restaurants with smaller, more eclectic lists.
But I applaud Molly for her positive attitude. I hope, as she gains more experience, she won’t become as jaded and curmudgeonly as many of us here (though if you do, please join us in the “curmudgeon” thread)
Ha! Well here’s hoping that I drink so much amazing wine in the next 30 years or so to be as jaded and curmudgeonly as you both
1 Like
Dan_Sch
September 12, 2021, 11:37pm
218
Yeah, the only time I got value from a Somm was at Komi a couple years ago. Also the only place I have ever been impressed with a pairing. Lots of cool stuff that was also really good. No bullshit orange this and natty that. But most were from distinct regions in Italy and Greece and went well with the dishes.
It also might have just been a good connection from the start of the meal, as we spent a fair amount of it taking about wine (wife, somm, and me).
2 Likes
I’m with you on points 1-3, but I disagree with the notion that an experienced and skilled somm doesn’t add comparable value to the skill in the kitchen. If I’m at a high end restaurant, I never order something that I have at home (and therefore know the price of). If I did and markup seemed unreasonable, I’d feel gouged. But I, as an admittedly likely less experienced wine drinker than almost all of you, take those opportunities to use the Somm’s experience and breadth of knowledge to be introduced to wines I haven’t tried before. If I love something that I paid $400 for in a restaurant and go home and realize I can buy it for $50, then frankly I’m thrilled that I now know about this great qpr wine I wouldn’t have otherwise known that I loved.
One of my favorite restaurants is Manresa in Los Gatos, and despite the hefty price tag I always leave there feeling like I got a great deal relative to the experience I had. We love talking to Jim and asking him to pick a couple bottles we’re not familiar with based on other wines we like and what will be coming out for the evening (courses are a surprise). I haven’t studied their list v. retail cost and have no idea how the markups on the bottles we’ve ordered there are, but I definitely feel like he adds tons of value relative to me bringing a bottle from home that I already know about (and like). And I feel the same about plenty of other, lesser known and without master somm restaurants in my area (Sacramento)
I think Manresa has a fantastically priced wine list with some very nice offerings.
A lot of people on here are reasonably set in their ways in terms of what they like to drink, and in many cases have more experience with that subset of wines than most somms do. I like to see what type of pairings somms would potentially do with a particular menu (as in read about it, not buy the pairing) because it’s interesting, but essentially 100% of the time I get a tasting menu I’m going to bring/open grand marque champagne and top grand cru (rarely premier cru) red burgundy with some age.
I don’t do the pairings - it’s always too much alcohol for me. We also always do champagne and then a recommended red. I love grenache for a tasting menu - firmly believe it goes with everything. And that’s all fair, if you know what you like, it totally makes sense to go be more price sensitive on particular bottles - you don’t want or need to pay for the expert advice.
Almost hate to give up my secret but anyone who wants to see what I think is a fabulous wine list for generally less markup than you’d expect (at least for the bottles I’m familiar with) should check out localis in Sacramento. Had the 2008 chateau rayas grenache for $600 there a couple weeks ago.
Thanks for the tip. Certainly fair prices on two Raúl Pérez wines and a bit higher bit still good for the Domaine de Pelican Ouille Savagnin which is really hard to find. I wish it were organized differently but it’s still a great list.
Yeah, the only time I got value from a Somm was at Komi a couple years ago. Also the only place I have ever been impressed with a pairing. Lots of cool stuff that was also really good. No bullshit orange this and natty that. But most were from distinct regions in Italy and Greece and went well with the dishes.
It also might have just been a good connection from the start of the meal, as we spent a fair amount of it taking about wine (wife, somm, and me).
You kind of need a somm there; to call the list “of the beaten path” is an understatement and they allow no corkage.
![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
![[rofl.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/a/a7452fcd8e675af869f8da01174474a545b03944.gif "rofl"){kind=small}
. If that happened with something I didn’t love, well, I wouldn’t be looking it up to buy again.