What red/white blends have you tried?

[Wes_Barton]

Didn’t we discuss this before? The question is the terminology: Should the broad category of skin contact wines be called “orange wines” or should “orange wine” refer to the subset that are oxidative?

Our concern, having made some, is to avoid a stigmatizing term that implies the wine is contrary to what it is. People around here who know that term think oxidative. Ours aren’t, so we’ve put “skin contact” in small print on the whites and “Ramato styled Pinot Gris” in small print under its proprietary name. Saying they’re orange wines would make it less clear what they’re about.

I guess, it’s terminology, since you seem to have decided that for some reason, oxidative orange wines are somehow a key part of this genre.

That’s why I just leave this piece here: Orange wines It’s by Simon Woolf, an authority of sorts when it comes to orange wines / amber wines / skin contact whites. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but - from what I’ve witnessed - that text seems to reflect the sentiment of a larger part of consumers.

Anyhow, I understand immediately what one means if the wine is labeled as “Ramato styled”. However, I’m not so sure how many pedestrian customers have ever heard of “Ramato”, while a term “orange wine” might ring some bells.

I don’t know comprehensively, but I’ve read for some countries, the literal translation is “amber wine”. According to Wikipedia: “The popular term “Orange wine” was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004.” So, I’d argue “amber” is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn’t imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn’t make people think it’s a citrus wine.

“Ramato” is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.

[Brian_G_r_a_f_s_t_r_o_m]

Musar’s rosé

[Otto_Forsberg]

I don’t know comprehensively, but I’ve read for some countries, the literal translation is “amber wine”. According to Wikipedia: “The popular term “Orange wine” was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004.” So, I’d argue “amber” is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn’t imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn’t make people think it’s a citrus wine.

You forgot 6) Doesn’t make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.

“Ramato” is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.

I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers “orange wine” would tell immediately what style the wine is, but “Ramato” instead to a very limited number of people. I really don’t see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.

[Wes_Barton]

I don’t know comprehensively, but I’ve read for some countries, the literal translation is “amber wine”. According to Wikipedia: “The popular term “Orange wine” was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004.” So, I’d argue “amber” is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn’t imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn’t make people think it’s a citrus wine.

You forgot 6) Doesn’t make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.

“Ramato” is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.

I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers “orange wine” would tell immediately what style the wine is, but “Ramato” instead to a very limited number of people. I really don’t see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.

I take it you think point #5 is silly, but that only means you don’t have any experience pouring wine at tastings. I guarantee you more people will hear “This is our orange wine” and think it’s made from oranges than will know what an “orange wine” is. That repeated person-to-person interaction is where you pick up peoples’ misconceptions and hone your ways to introduce the wines briefly in ways that will intrigue the so inclined and inspire a discussion with some, while not causing others to glaze over.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I don’t know comprehensively, but I’ve read for some countries, the literal translation is “amber wine”. According to Wikipedia: “The popular term “Orange wine” was coined by a British wine importer, David A. Harvey, in 2004.” So, I’d argue “amber” is: 1) The historical term. 2) More accurate, in that it encompasses a full range of coloration, from subtle to glaring. 3) More elegant and appealing. 4) Doesn’t imply the wine is oxidized. 5) Doesn’t make people think it’s a citrus wine.

You forgot 6) Doesn’t make people think the wine comes from Orange, California or Orange, New South Wales.

“Ramato” is accurate and very specific. That invites the curious to take a peek at the back label, which should then have a brief explanation. Having glass that shows the color of the wine is also important to being upfront about what the wine is.

I certainly agree with all of the above points. However, my point was that for a good deal of consumers “orange wine” would tell immediately what style the wine is, but “Ramato” instead to a very limited number of people. I really don’t see much of a difference in the use of the term, if - as you said - the glass shows the color of the wine and the back label is informative enough.

I take it you think point #5 is silly, but that only means you don’t have any experience pouring wine at tastings. I guarantee you more people will hear “This is our orange wine” and think it’s made from oranges than will know what an “orange wine” is. That repeated person-to-person interaction is where you pick up peoples’ misconceptions and hone your ways to introduce the wines briefly in ways that will intrigue the so inclined and inspire a discussion with some, while not causing others to glaze over.

Now you’re just making wrong assumptions. I’ve been ITB for close to a decade and poured a fair share of wines at tastings. I’ve never needed to explain that an orange wine isn’t made of oranges, but that’s most likely because the color and the fruit are completely differnt words in Finnish. However, I’ve needed to explain to a customer that an Australian wine that was labeled as “Chardonnay, Orange” in a brochure was not an orange wine but instead a Chardonnay from Orange, New South Wales. Hence, my point, written only part in jest.

If customers are confused when pouring an orange wine, it is only because they’ve never encountered the term before. It’s only a matter of learning and education. They won’t be similarly confused the next time they encounter the term.

[Wes_Barton]

I’ve never needed to explain that an orange wine isn’t made of oranges, but that’s most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.

Yet, you’re arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn’t confusing, and is the literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?

[Ken_Zinns]

I’ve never needed to explain that an orange wine isn’t made of oranges, but that’s most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.

Yet, you’re arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn’t confusing, and is the literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?

I agree that orange wine is a confusing though currently fairly common term. Amber wine is the preferred description for Georgian whites made in that style and probably a better term. I typically just describe them as skin-fermented whites and leave it at that, but people seem to like a category of ____ wine. Maybe that’s it, they’ll be blank wines like Richard Hell’s “Blank Generation” - fill in the blank with whatever you want.

[Nate_Simon]

Fine Disregard includes some Semillon in their Syrah, and it’s plenty nice.

[Otto_Forsberg]

I’ve never needed to explain that an orange wine isn’t made of oranges, but that’s most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.

Yet, you’re arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn’t confusing, and is the literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?

“Sounds better” is a completely subjective term and thus a rather moot point as an argument. And I really didn’t really catch which term are you referring to with a “literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia”.

However, you seem to have understood me all wrong. I’m not here vouching for the exclusive use of the term “orange wine”, I’m just saying it is a term used interchangeably with “amber wine” and “skin-contact whites” all around the world and pointing out that out of those three, “orange wine” seems to be the most popular one. I’m also perfectly fine with using “Ramato” as well, but only if the wine in question bears some relation to this rather obscure style of Northern Italian wine.

My biggest beef is that whenever orange wines / amber wines / skin-contact whites are mentioned here, you seem to be always bringing up the point about oxidized orange wines and how the term should refer exclusively to those wines, which sounds not only weird but plain wrong to my ears.

[G_Greenbaum]

Most, if not all, of the Friuli and Slovinian skin contact wines I’ve had, and I’ve visited wineries in these areas, were non-oxidized.

[Wes_Barton]

I’ve never needed to explain that an orange wine isn’t made of oranges, but that’s most likely because the color and the fruit are completely different words in Finnish.

Yet, you’re arguing that they should be the same word here. Here, where market awareness of such wines is practically zero. This is the perfect time to establish the term we want used. So, why not an accurate term that sounds better, isn’t confusing, and is the literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia, rather than some awkward term some English twat came up with 15 years ago?

“Sounds better” is a completely subjective term and thus a rather moot point as an argument. And I really didn’t really catch which term are you referring to with a “literal translation of what’s used elsewhere for millennia”.

However, you seem to have understood me all wrong. I’m not here vouching for the exclusive use of the term “orange wine”, I’m just saying it is a term used interchangeably with “amber wine” and “skin-contact whites” all around the world and pointing out that out of those three, “orange wine” seems to be the most popular one. I’m also perfectly fine with using “Ramato” as well, but only if the wine in question bears some relation to this rather obscure style of Northern Italian wine.

My biggest beef is that whenever orange wines / amber wines / skin-contact whites are mentioned here, you seem to be always bringing up the point about oxidized orange wines and how the term should refer exclusively to those wines, which sounds not only weird but plain wrong to my ears.

“Meritage” sounds better pronounced incorrectly. We’re talking the marketing of a new concept for a market you aren’t in. Not sure why you didn’t “catch” my recitation that the term “orange wine” was coined 15 years ago.

So, you have a beef with me thinking, in a brand new market, where people are just starting to learn about this wines, that there should be: 1) A broad term that encompasses all skin-contact whites. 2) A more specific term for oxidative ones. 3) A more specific term for non-oxidative ones.

Maybe even all the people pointing out the prominence of non-oxidative ones in Europe are making my point. Most of the ones imported here and made here are oxidated and referred to as orange wines. So, again, with what little market awareness there is, people here associate the term “orange wine” with being literally orange and oxidized. That makes it a difficult uphill battle for some fantastic wines to get a foothold, if people have them stigmatized and don’t even want to try them. Orange is the new Pinotage?

[G_Greenbaum]

Most of the ones imported here and made here are oxidated…

Hi Wes - For my education, could you please point me to the literature that supports this assertion?

[Otto_Forsberg]

“Meritage” sounds better pronounced incorrectly. We’re talking the marketing of a new concept for a market you aren’t in. Not sure why you didn’t “catch” my recitation that the term “orange wine” was coined 15 years ago.

What do you mean? I certainly did catch that, I just didn’t catch what was your alternative.

So, you have a beef with me thinking, in a brand new market, where people are just starting to learn about this wines, that there should be: 1) A broad term that encompasses all skin-contact whites. 2) A more specific term for oxidative ones. 3) A more specific term for non-oxidative ones.

I do not. I’m just pointing out that the term “orange wine” is a globally used term that is synonymous with skin-contact whites, nothing to do whether the wine is oxidative or not. If you can come up with good terms for different styles of wine, but I don’t recommend using one that has entirely different meaning elsewhere.

Maybe even all the people pointing out the prominence of non-oxidative ones in Europe are making my point. Most of the ones imported here and made here are oxidated and referred to as orange wines. So, again, with what little market awareness there is, people here associate the term “orange wine” with being literally orange and oxidized. That makes it a difficult uphill battle for some fantastic wines to get a foothold, if people have them stigmatized and don’t even want to try them. Orange is the new Pinotage?

For the longest of time we didn’t have any German red wines here and once we had some, they were cheap and medium-sweet. That’s why people still think all German red wines are simple, cheap and sweet. Sounds pretty much like the same thing.

However, with enough customer education people have finally understood that German red wines are almost exclusively dry and can be remarkably complex (and quite expensive). If people think one thing, it doesn’t mean it’s a stone cold fact.

You certainly don’t need to use the term “orange wine” with your skin-contact wine, but please don’t always come babbling how “orange wine means oxidized wine” just because you and people in your market think so.

[Wes_Barton]

Most of the ones imported here and made here are oxidated…

Hi Wes - For my education, could you please point me to the literature that supports this assertion?

We taste a very high percentage of the esoteric wines available here in the SF Bay Area. An extended group of people doing the legwork, going to the various shops, events and wineries. These wines tend to make it into our work day blind tastings. That’s a lot of wine.

[Otto_Forsberg]

We taste a very high percentage of the esoteric wines available here in the SF Bay Area. An extended group of people doing the legwork, going to the various shops, events and wineries. These wines tend to make it into our work day blind tastings. That’s a lot of wine.

I’d be more than happy to hear some names. I’ve been tasting quite a bit of orange wines and it would be interesting to see whether there any common labels - especially of those that are imported, since I have very little experience with US skin-contact whites.