Many here talk about the wine geek/collector/wine snob category - since 99.5% or more of the wine purchased is not by (us) such folks, I’m really wondering if anybody has done the research on the majority of the wine buying public, to see just how effective scores are, how much they are used, etc. Again, I encourage you to ask around - ask neighbors, co-workers, etc. People you know ‘enjoy wine’ but don’t have ANY in a cellar, storage of any kind, and just buy it because they like it.
You could be right. But if it is true that marketing and sales budgets could cause one to sell out 25,000 cases of $200 wine, then everyone should be able to do it. All the people at Opus would have been hired by other wineries to do for them what they did for Opus. It has not happened. I am not sure those relationships would have happened without the early big scores to get the ball rolling. I think they are just masters of capitalizing on it.
If you’re a real winery - points are cool, but they do not sell wine. People sell wine. Why do you think there’s so many family owned wineries that get no publicity or love from the critics yet remain in business? Has a winery like Sequoia Grove ever made any waves with the critics? That sure hasn’t stopped them from doing business - somebody is buying their wines.
For the large wineries, or the corporately owned wineries - the infrastructure those businesses have regards to distribution, access to restaurants, and the research into what the market wants in North America is what sells those brands. Points is an afterthought.
You don’t see points listed on a restaurants wine list.
You do not see scores for California Moscato… yet it’s the hottest wine on the market.
Great perspective, Frank. I was about to add that the people who can really answer this question are retailers and people in the auction business and to a varying extent some producers.
I imagine if you’ve worked at Hi Time or K&L or somewhere long enough, you’ve seen how scores make certain wines move, but also how scores may have very little effect on other wines.
You’re all talking about different market SEGMENTS. There is no ‘the market’. The people who buy modestly priced wine from small family wineries aren’t the same people who buy the current hot wine at trader Joes or the people who buy Mondavi Woodbridge and Yellowtail. The people who buy at Kermit Lynch and K&L and other specialty shops aren’t precisely the same people who buy at Kroger’s. The people who fawn over Opus One, Caymus and Silver Oak are different from the naturalistas who hit Terriors in SF.
Likewise, the budding wine geek who’s just now learning and developing an interest might use critics to guide them and thus buy into points. IN 5 or 10 years, they might not.
The answer depends on how you segment the market.
Let’s turn this around a bit. You buy a 6 pack of Domaine X Burgundy for $200 per bottle often. Certainly in the good+ vintages. It’s always well received by others including various critics. Points may vary, but they’re generally well into the 90’s. The new release in an excellent vintage suddenly gets a score of, say 82. This from a well respected Burgundy critic. No TN or other data to go on. Highly allocated with a small production so you probably won’t get a chance to taste before you buy. Do you buy your normal 6?
by-the-glass is in the process of making the points system obsolete.
true confession—I do distribute points on behalf of an Austrian wine publication,
but only because of the international nature of the activity,
and a mitigating factor that the 20-scale is converted to “number of glasses”
before it is released upon the public at 10€ a copy…
I’ll use myself as someone that buys on points occasionally. I know very little about Chilean or Argentina Malbecs. If I decide I want to expand my experiences and have a malbec, the ratings provide some type of system to choose between the masses of wines. There are just too many wines to choose from, many being phlonk or near so, to not allow the pros to give you some guidance on where to start. Perfect system, no, but almost always better than inne, menne, minne, mo!
If that critic had never reviewed the domaine before, I’d probably ignore the 82. But if that same critic had loved the wines in prior vintages, sure as heck I would not buy without tasting first. One of the valid functions of a wine critic is to raise the red flag if a producer fucks up a vintage, and golly gee, that sometimes happens.
I think the point system is at its most powerful in two situations: (1) expensive wines from Napa or Bordeaux rating 95+, where the buyers fancy themselves collectors or connoisseurs and subscribe to the journals, and (2) cheap ($15 and under) wines, where the buyers don’t much care about prestige but are easily swayed by a shelf talker marking one option an 89 and the other an 88.
+1. It is a factor I consider in my purchases, along with price, the type of wine, my familiarity with the winery and/or varietal, and previous experience. Put differently, it is a screen–If a wine receives a rating of 82 points (say), I’m not going to be on the lookout for it. If it receives a 92, I may consider it, especially if it has other appealing attributes.
Most people would be appalled that a bottle of wine could cost more than $10 or $20 a bottle!
Points are prevalent and enforced as I believe you said because they sell ultrapremium wine. Cute animals and catchy displays sell wines under ten bucks or “i buy because i like” crowd type of wines. My buddies who routinely buy zombie zin because they like it will also go to the store on special ocassions to buy a$40 wine and typically say (actual example from two days ago at a restaurant with what i call a jack and diet wine list) "hey this merlot says WE 93 points, thats good right?
So id say above a certain price point a great deal of purchases are point driven.
You’ve never worked retail, have you?
Fair question, Todder.
A lot of my friends and family members that drink a lot of wine, some of it higher end, do not as I understand it buy on points. They seem to go off label recognition and retailer recommendation more than points. One of my friends spends more than anyone I personally know on wine. I know for a fact he does not buy off points, and frankly, is not as learned as the typical poster here. He goes big on Bordeaux and Cali labels. He knows the typically great producers and the good vintages.
About 0%. I am not afraid to use points if I want to try something new and have no other options…but:
(1) I now what i like and that keeps my credit card quite busy,
(2) Reading this board precludes the need for points. Lots of great suggestions.
But not every one knows of this board. I only subscribe to Wine Spectator…but not so much for the wine reviews as for use as a leisure magazine. I like reading about different wine regions and new wineries, where to stay, etc…then I buy what I already like to buy.
Called my parents and brother to see.
Dad’s response: Someone scores wine? How do they do that? What’s the purpose. (He drinks Beafeaters Gin and the occasional bottle of Mouton Cadet).
Mom’s response: That’s why I use my airline miles to get you Wine Spectator every year for Christmas right? (She drinks whatever is cheapest at Trader Joe’s and thinks $5 is a high price point)
My Brother’s response: Who buys wine except for you?
Enough said?
Now that’s funny!
Very funny.
Todd - no science here but I think Keith has a good point.
People who pay a lot of money buy on points. For instance, people actually organize tastings based on points - e.g. “bring a 94 point wine or better”. (“Better” is of course, an interesting word.) But if you’re buying wine as a Veblen good, what good does it do you to buy a 84 point wine? You buy by the label or by the points. And it’s a real crowd thing too - Australia and Spain got knocked out of the ring when fads changed, regardless of points. This group knows the points before they enter the store.
At the sub-$20 range, people really buy on points. They don’t know the dif between Gwertz or Chardonnay but if one has 92 and one has no points, they’ll buy the 92 point wine. For that crowd, shelf-talkers move product.
I’ve seen both first hand often enough. At the $30 range, it’s more interesting. Small sector, but maybe more influential on their neighbors than they’re given credit for.