I’m conceding that you’re the better man already, Mike. Cheers. But no.
Cheerios! 
I nominate this for Post of the Year. Very entertaining and informative!
If I had to assign one of these snob categories to myself it would be #6. I’ll go out on an limb and say most of the Francophiles here fit in the #2 category. 
5 for sure.
Maybe 6.
Glad to see you posting Lyle.
Are the high end price ‘name’ snob and #6 the same, it’s just the latter likes to think he “knows what is quality” whilst the former recognises that he’s not got any superhero powers and thus buys what are commonly accepted to be good examples.
On re-reading #6 comes across as perhaps the greatest snob, the one who thinks his palate is superior and can always spot 'the best examples. Not much difference between that and Walt’s 7 if we believe our own hype too much.
I’ll add an 8th, only because I suffer from it:
*The cellaring snob: Wine should be cellared to gain complexity /attain maturity and wines that are not ageworthy are lesser wines because of it. Drinking immature wine is a shame and potentially a waste.
regards
Ian
- Recognising there are loads of wines that are great on release and can offer great enjoyment young / don’t need ageing - it’s just I tend to get it into my head that my hobby isn’t about instant gratification.
a shred of 5, a bit of 6, but i’m cool with drinking wine for its alcohol content if that’s all it’s there for.
Lyle, I enjoyed this, a good read. Now a serious question: In which snob category were you in back in 2007 when you wrote this:
99/04 Lager-Meredith Syrah Mt. Veeder - Too oaky. Really nasty. Had the '04 today and much better but still crappy CA syrah. Not too oaky and pretty pure. But in general avoid these if you see them.
Ian, that is a very peculiar reading of Lyle’s #6. Incomprehensible almost, at least to me.
Your #8 is poignant and belongs on the list.
No Mike, I’m afraid you have it the wrong way around. The line in italics you’ve quoted from Lyle is not an expression of snobbery, rather a simple statement of truth, uncontroversial for most people with a serious and broad tasting and drinking background. Of course it is also simplistic and there are all kinds of qualifications and explanations to add, but within the context of high quality wine it’s a straight forward largely accepted statement that does not speak of snobbery.
Then again, one could easily take your post as an example of
#9) The relativist/scientific snob. To these people wine is wine and any attempt at differentiating based on history or quality is ridiculous and based on self absorbed moneyed people fooling themselves and flaunting their self made hierarchies. Closely linked to the proofs, the “hard science”, all the (old?) UC Davis and Australian research papers clearly showing soil has no impact on wine quality except as a conduit of the vine’s water uptake. Science has shown grapes are created equal, to the extent there is a difference it all depends on chosen ripeness levels and winemaking techniques in the cellar.
That’s me. Anti-hallowed ground and all.
seriously, I get your point for the most past but simplistic it can be. Same better dirt elsewhere? Cooler or hotter? Not so perfect. Wine in its perfect form is an alchemy of many things. Even my ‘narrow-minded’ self knows that.
one more thing and I leave this thread forever. I do not like being condescended upon. In this thread lies much of what is wrong in wine todsy, yesterday and forever I guess.
carry on snobs.
I think I kind of agree with Ian and it was kind of the point I was making analogizing 5 to 6. There are a number of people on this board (and people I drink with) that have very different conceptions of what is quality from what I do. I think the point that makes the person in 6 a snob is a conceit that most of us have on this board - that only we can recognize quality. Whether it is a person who cannot stand California Chardonnay because it is too buttery and oaky or a person who hates Burgundy because it is thin and watery or whether it is in a much more narrow sense - I have a friend who has a vastly different opinion from me about 1996 Burgundy - l love them and find the wines fresh, he cannot stand the acidity. Is quality something we all recognize (likely sometime) or something that makes the person in 6 a bigger snob than someone in 1-5. The person who says “I have no prejudices about style, I am all about quality and only I can recognize quality.” It reminds me of Allen Meadows or Robert Parker rating wines “objectively,” which I don’t believe can be done at the level where most of us are drinking wine.
I think you can know what you like and not be a snob. Sorry, having an opinion on what you like is one thing, denigrating others because they dont have the same opinion or you feel you know more… well, thats a snob. Nothing to be envied about… JMHO
I wasn’t being cheeky. I was actually trying to be nice, and self critical, while also disagreeing with you.
I’m sorry you took this tone over it.
Geir
I’m sure I was being provocative.
What I’m suggesting is an intellectual snobbishness - of being the superior geek with a great wine knowledge. It’s the one I suspect most of us (myself included) are guilty of. Like all snobbishness there is some merit in it - but take it too far and we start to look down on others for their inferior knowledge “why is that idiot drinking a poor wine - I would never do that”. It would be a very smug/arrogant attitude for me to say (stealing the later words from #6) " I have many wines left to enjoy on earth and will not allow any crap to pass down my gullet.
I have some friends who are not well off. I try to take something I think is good when we socialise with them and they are good enough friends to acknowledge the effort. They normally restrict themselves to wines in the £5-£8 range and occasionally turn up some real gems, but there is also a lot of wine at that price I don’t greatly enjoy. If I were to refuse to drink it, declaring “I will not allow any crap to pass down my gullet” I’d lose some wonderful friends and yes I’d be an awful snob in doing so.
If I’m on my own (e.g. working away from home), then I’m happy to avoid alcohol if I can’t see myself enjoying it, and I think that’s a great confidence booster that my enthusiasm for wine isn’t thinly disguised alcoholism.
regards
Ian
Undoubtedly true but…
We do know more! We definitely know a TON more. What the hell are we doing around here if we don’t know more??!!
Look, I appreciate your sentiment. And just as I insulted Mike, I’ll insult you, Harris. You’re being the better person. I’m envious. But it would be disingenuous of me to pretend I don’t think I have better taste than the average person in the Safeway wine section.
They and everybody should drink what they like but
The idea that there’s no disputing taste is a conundrum. It’s not an absolute truth, though it’s probably wisdom. My perspective is that if your dirt is different, then it’s not merely different, it’s also necessarily better or worse. And since I have better taste, I’ll decide which. THAT’s a Level Six Snob.
But if you… not you… if “one” feels denigrated by that, then there’s something missing from this equation because it’s got no correlation to “human value” as the wiki, I think, put it.
I think I see what you are saying Howard, and I partially agree. But I also think both you and Ian are guilty of reading things into Lyle’s text that are not there, thereby arguing past him or against something he did not say. In his #6 there is no mention of …spotting ‘the best examples’ or …only I can recognize quality. The key phrase to me in #6 is …so long as it is well made for what it is.
What constitutes well made or quality is a complicated and complex issue. It starts with an attempt at defining wine and goes on to a whole series of considerations, some of which have an objective base or starting-off point but most of which are or finish in the subjective. One can have strong opinions on them, even snobbish opinions, without thinking or communicating that one’s own are necessarily better, more correct or the only valid ones. “I believe this, it goes for me and my taste, yours may vary.”
Ian, of course there’s intellectual snobbery, we’re discussing snobbery after all.
The line of …not allow any crap to pass down my gullet is not one I would applaud or defend. To your point, it is possible to have superior knowledge, and maybe be a snob, but to still behave kindly and considerately in social settings; and maybe even drink across your perceived wisdom, for the hell of it or even to risk challenging your view.
Lyle seems to make one big point: We’re all snobs, own it. Appologizing for putting words in his mouth, and for speaking for everyone: I agree. Self awareness is critical. With it I believe one can be a decent snob, and avoid the parts of condescension in the dictionary definition.
6 for me I think.
Many of my friends who have no real interest is finer wine call me a snob, but mean it as a personality trait they (seem to) find endearing. I share with them; they don’t share with me.
I agree with MP that, for some, snob has negative connotations when arrogance and self superiority are apparent.
I do not look down on other people but I have no guilt about looking down on some of their wines.
![[cheers.gif]](/uploads/db3686/original/2X/0/0ff9bfcdb0964982cd3240b6159868fbdf215b1a.gif "cheers"){kind=small}
Geir, remember, Lyle called it #6 type of snobbery. He never said it was not snobbery. Your last quote begins to turn it away from snobbery. It would even be better if you try to learn from the guy with different tastes to see why he likes the wine. Sometimes you change your view over time (I like Champagne a whole lot more than I used to) and sometimes not (still don’t like buttery, overoaked Chardonnay).
I’m not saying it’s not snobbery, Howard, it’s more a point of self awareness. And of owning, possibly redefining the word.
Most people who see themselves as, or recognize parts of themselves in, #6 have certainly changed their view over time. Being open to expanding your horizon or opinion, or even taste, does not preclude you from being a #6 type snob, or similar.