What is Mouton, Really?

[David_Bu3ker]

The 1979 Pichon Lalande was one of the first aged Bordeaux I ever had. It was only 20 at the time (1999), but it made me a believer.

[Neal.Mollen]

One of the criteria fore to be a First Growth is to have an occasional wine of the vintage.

Wait . . .what? Was Robert Parker in France in 1855 to declare “wines of the vintage?”

[Howard_Cooper]

Is there any kind of consensus that Lalande was always a step behind Baron? Certainly not from a critical acclaim standpoint from the 80s forward…but then again I haven’t had many from the 20s-60s, aside from some 55s. I readily acknowledge that your experiences vastly outweigh mine, but the information you’ve conveyed is inconsistent with what I’d read elsewhere. And my experiences with Baron v. Lalande from the 70s and 80s is tilted towards Lalande.

[quote=“Jeff Leve” p

FWIW, Pichon L was weak in the 20’s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and except for 82, which is great, they didn’t return consistently to the top of the class until maybe 2015. Yes some years are good, 85, 89, 86 if you like it, which I don’t, 96, 00, 03 are good, good but they were always a step behind Pichon B.

As for the 70s, it was piss poor for both estates, though PL is better, in the 80s, PL is better. From 89-2014, PB is the better wine. All this completion however means the consumer is the winner!

Piss poor??!!

Not sure what you have been tasting but Pichon Lalande made some excellent wines in the seventies, starting with the ‘70 itself. Although you don’t like 1975s, they made an excellent wine, the 1976 was pleasant enough young but aged rapidly, the ‘78 was sub par, but the 1979 was delicious, although now fading. I have not had the 1971 or restated the 1976 recently but nobody made good wines in 1972, 1973, 1977 and only La Mission and Trotanoy made decent 1974s. So it was a pretty hopeless decade for everybody, but Pichon Lalande certainly held its own.

I think you are also damning with faint praise the early 1980s. No recent notes on 1980, 1984, but 1981 was decent, 1982 was legendary, the 1983 we had on Thursday was so good, I bought more, and the 1985 and 1986 are also superb.

I had the 1979 PL earlier this year (May) and it was still fabulous. Bought new in the earlier 80s by a close friend and always stored in a temperature controlled cellar.

[Howard_Cooper]

One of the criteria fore to be a First Growth is to have an occasional wine of the vintage.

Wait . . .what? Was Robert Parker in France in 1855 to declare “wines of the vintage?”

I thought what was important to be a 1st growth was to sell at a high price in 1855 (1973).

[Robert.A.Jr]

I love Mouton. The style resonates with me, where Margaux and Lafite consistently underwhelm me.

Different strokes.

I do too. Margaux has underwhelmed me, Lafite is almost always classic. Haut Brion is tops. Two of my all-time fave Bordeaux are Mouton - 1982 and 1986. Mouton works for me. I toured the Chateau and Museum during my honeymoon, and love the labels, but the wine resonates as well. Powerful, often exotic. Have not tried 2016, but Mark G raves about it, and I respect his palate immensely.

Is it worth it? That’s up to you.

Personally I’d spend my money on VCC and Trotanoy. Hard to imagine any better wines being made.

PS. Fu talking about Bordeaux is like me talking about Burgundy.

[William_Kelley]

FWIW, Pichon L was weak in the 20’s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and except for 82, which is great, they didn’t return consistently to the top of the class until maybe 2015. Yes some years are good, 85, 89, 86 if you like it, which I don’t, 96, 00, 03 are good, good but they were always a step behind Pichon B.

Largely agree with your take on Mouton, but I find this reading of Pichon Lalande a bit severe. For me, they excelled in the late '70s and early 60s ('62 and '64 as well as obviously '61). And the best I ever had along with the 1982 was the 1928.

[John_Morris]

FWIW, Pichon L was weak in the 20’s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and except for 82, which is great, they didn’t return consistently to the top of the class until maybe 2015. Yes some years are good, 85, 89, 86 if you like it, which I don’t, 96, 00, 03 are good, good but they were always a step behind Pichon B.

Is there any kind of consensus that Lalande was always a step behind Baron? Certainly not from a critical acclaim standpoint from the 80s forward…but then again I haven’t had many from the 20s-60s, aside from some 55s. I readily acknowledge that your experiences vastly outweigh mine, but the information you’ve conveyed is inconsistent with what I’d read elsewhere. And my experiences with Baron v. Lalande from the 70s and 80s is tilted towards Lalande.

I’m with Mark and Howard and others on PLL. Certainly, the 70 and 79 were excellent in a decade without a lot of good vintages. I recall finding the PBs in the late 70s and 80s rather rustic and tannic.

Of course, in those days PLL was something like 35% or 40% merlot, while PB was more classic Pauillac, with much higher cabernet content.

The cepage at PLL was unique among top Medocs in that era. Perhaps that explains the success of the 79 and 83. Also, some of PLL’s vineyards are in St. Julien.

As for 83 Mouton, the vintage was less successful the further north you went in the Medoc. Margaux excelled; St. Estephe, not so much.

[alan_weinberg]

I’m surprised that no one here seems to like the 1983 Mouton, which I found to be elegant and enjoyable when I had it. But perhaps it’s the infamous bottle variation at play here. All I can say is, my spouse and I like Mouton enough to name our dog after it

what does the dog think about that?

The dog enjoys meeting up with his siblings Margaux, Harlan and Kenzo. Sometimes we even drink their namesakes

you need a Montrachet or Tâche.

[Keith_Levenberg]

I kind of agree on Mouton. Never as elegant as Lafite, never as interesting as Haut-Brion. Whether it belongs at the bottom of the firsts or the top of the seconds depends on the era I guess, but that spot sounds about right to me. Totally disagree with the comparison to Pichon Lalande though, one of the classiest and most distinctive wines in Bordeaux in my book. I can’t think of a top year they bombed except the notorious 1990, but a lot of the top wines bombed in '89 and '90 for reasons I don’t know if there’s ever been a good explanation for, and there are a lot of PLL vintages I’d take over the corresponding Mouton.

[David_K_o_l_i_n]

1928 Mouton is spectacular

[Jason_L_Jones]

When drinking side-by-side with another first growth from the same vintage it’s consistently on the short end. I can’t think of a vintage where I prefer it over the rest of the first growths, but if someone wants to set up a horizontal of the ‘45s let me know!

The youngest I’ve had is ‘98 so unsure about the newer wines, though I did end up with some ‘19 on futures.

[Andy_Sc]

Here is an interesting view on the current state of the race for best Bordeaux according to the critics. For every vintage there is a ranking with the wine with the highest average of (roughly) 17 critics on top (in the bottle if available and otherwise En Primeur ratings).

As Jeff Leve wrote, Mouton really stepped up its game in the past few years. 2015 to 2020, it has the 4th spot overall among all Bordeauxs as you can see in the picture below. And I would include 2009/2010 in the “new dawn era of Mouton” (on Cellartracker Mouton is #10 in 2009 and #5 in 2010).

[dcornutt]

It is one of the greatest. I have tasted a few of them. I know they don’t hit as much as Haut Brion or even Latour but when they do like 1945, 1959,1982 and now I would include the incredible 2005, the wine is one of the very best. My $0.02 BTW, I would have to say I am one on the fence about 1986. It is undoubtedly a great wine but it is always unyielding when I have tried it.

[Scott_Brunson]

The 1979 Pichon Lalande was one of the first aged Bordeaux I ever had. It was only 20 at the time (1999), but it made me a believer.

I still have one bottle remaining.

[Mikael_OB]

Can’t we just do a proper tasting and sort this one out?
I can offer a quite decent palate, not much first growth experience, however an open mind to tasting wines - perfect in the sense of being a neutral rater with no preconceptions.

[Robert.A.Jr]

Here is an interesting view on the current state of the race for best Bordeaux according to the critics. For every vintage there is a ranking with the wine with the highest average of (roughly) 17 critics on top (in the bottle if available and otherwise En Primeur ratings).

As Jeff Leve wrote, Mouton really stepped up its game in the past few years. 2015 to 2020, it has the 4th spot overall among all Bordeauxs as you can see in the picture below. And I would include 2009/2010 in the “new dawn era of Mouton” (on Cellartracker Mouton is #10 in 2009 and #5 in 2010).

It just struck me, with the exception of one, I have had every single wine on the list, most from quite a few vintages, even Petrus. But, I have never had a Lafleur. LOL, and of course it is No. 1 on that list. Need to remedy this.

[Vince_T]

Here is an interesting view on the current state of the race for best Bordeaux according to the critics. For every vintage there is a ranking with the wine with the highest average of (roughly) 17 critics on top (in the bottle if available and otherwise En Primeur ratings).

As Jeff Leve wrote, Mouton really stepped up its game in the past few years. 2015 to 2020, it has the 4th spot overall among all Bordeauxs as you can see in the picture below. And I would include 2009/2010 in the “new dawn era of Mouton” (on Cellartracker Mouton is #10 in 2009 and #5 in 2010).

Slight thread drift but there’s only one wine in the top 20 that you can still buy every vintage 2015-2020 for under $200 in the US. Hint: It’s not PLL, where the 2016 W-S low is $245.

[Howard_Cooper]

what does the dog think about that?

The dog enjoys meeting up with his siblings Margaux, Harlan and Kenzo. Sometimes we even drink their namesakes

you need a Montrachet or Tâche.

If one drinks Montrachet and la Tâche, you forget about whether when PL and Mouton performed better or worse. Not fair.

[Howard_Cooper]

Here is an interesting view on the current state of the race for best Bordeaux according to the critics. For every vintage there is a ranking with the wine with the highest average of (roughly) 17 critics on top (in the bottle if available and otherwise En Primeur ratings).

As Jeff Leve wrote, Mouton really stepped up its game in the past few years. 2015 to 2020, it has the 4th spot overall among all Bordeauxs as you can see in the picture below. And I would include 2009/2010 in the “new dawn era of Mouton” (on Cellartracker Mouton is #10 in 2009 and #5 in 2010).

Slight thread drift but there’s only one wine in the top 20 that you can still buy every vintage 2015-2020 for under $200 in the US. Hint: It’s not PLL, where the 2016 W-S low is $245.

The 2016 PL though is a fantastic wine.

[J_Ashourian]

I think its important to remember that a first growth is only a first growth because the wine sold for the highest price when the classification was enacted. Of course, Mouton was not included in that elite list, but, instead successfully petitioned many decades later to be included.

What can be said (today, at least) is many factors contribute (in different ways to different wines) to a wine selling for a high price. I think an argument can be made that a consumers perception of a particular wines quality vis a vis its peers is less of an influence on the price of said wine today more than ever.

So, in the case of the chateaux that existed long ago, was it enough to have one or two grand slams per decade, or, should the wine be judged year in year out? Or what? I think that was the issue, so they left it up to the Negociants who ultimately relied on supply/demand forces to decide the tiers.